Southern Mountain Build

Crewdawg445 · Apr 7, 2019

I'm planning out a SMR rifle build and have had a rather difficult time unearthing any concrete documentation pinpointing the exact date ranges of these rifles. I know during the Revolution these types of "poor boy" designs existed and were used by the Over the mountain boys, however I'm coming to the conclusion that the term SMR, poor boy and barn gun is used very loosely to describe a broad category of arms used along the Appalachian region and into Kentucky. I just don't see iron furniture being referenced until the later part of the 1790's and into the early 19th century. Does anyone have more sources or concrete evidence concerning these great rifles they would be willing to share? Thanks gents!

Pete G · Apr 7, 2019

Go over to the ALR site. Dennis has done a lot of research on SMRs.

Crewdawg445 · Apr 7, 2019

Thank you Pete, I'll certainly look into that.

dave_person · Apr 7, 2019

Hi,
Rifles we now refer to as "southern mountain rifles" are a 19th century product and most designs we are familiar with were made after the 1820s. At least one author, Lyman Draper, in his narrative published in the 1880s described rifles carried by "over mountain" boys during Kings Mountain as "Deckkard" rifles probably referring to Jacob Dickert of PA. Iron mounted rifles from the Rev War and colonial period are extremely rare. The vast majority were brass mounted and made in PA and northern Virginia. Dan Morgan stopped in Reading, PA to buy rifles. Gunsmiths from Moravian settlements in PA settled in NC and other parts further west bringing the same gunmaking traditions with them. Folks today using cast steel butt plates and guards derived from original brass mounts are building fantasy guns.

dave

Crewdawg445 · Apr 7, 2019

Thanks Dave, was hoping you'd see this. I've came across references to mountain rifles being used during the war of 1812, can you verify this?

Treestalker · Apr 7, 2019

Hello, Crewdawg, I'm glad you are studying and building a SMR. I have just begun a rifle for a friend, Terry, his rifle is a .40 cal. Rice barrel, 3/4" x 42" with L&R Durs Egg flintlock and Davis triggers on a m2 Pecatonica Southern Mountain stock. Meanwhile, I continue to plod along on my own SMR, .36 cal. 13/16" x 42'' Rayl barrel Dixie SMR percussion lock, triggers marked Belgium, and stock from Ozark black walnut saved from a firewood tree from a Terry's woodlot I've cut down from scratch. I agree, it's difficult to find detailed pictures of original SMRs, Some were very crude, Ambrose loving and the Bean Bros. are some of the best Tennessee rifle makers. Thanks for the thread, I hope we get lots of response and pictures! George B.

Crewdawg445 · Apr 7, 2019

Treestalker said:
Hello, Crewdawg, I'm glad you are studying and building a SMR. I have just begun a rifle for a friend, Terry, his rifle is a .40 cal. Rice barrel, 3/4" x 42" with L&R Durs Egg flintlock and Davis triggers on a m2 Pecatonica Southern Mountain stock. Meanwhile, I continue to plod along on my own SMR, .36 cal. 13/16" x 42'' Rayl barrel Dixie SMR percussion lock, triggers marked Belgium, and stock from Ozark black walnut saved from a firewood tree from a Terry's woodlot I've cut down from scratch. I agree, it's difficult to find detailed pictures of original SMRs, Some were very crude, Ambrose loving and the Bean Bros. are some of the best Tennessee rifle makers. Thanks for the thread, I hope we get lots of response and pictures! George B.

Pics George! Lol

I find the SMR to be a very simplistic, yet elegant design with their slender long stocks, which for me shoulder very well. Coupled with a swamped barrel the balance is spot on for me. I feel these rifles being so simple have somewhat slipped through the cracks amongst the more fancy and ornate rifles of the period. I feel that may be a good reason there just isn't much out there in terms of documentation.

I've spent my afternoon at work... Scouring through everything I could find, the ALR tip Pete posted above is a treasure trove of original images.

Comfortably_Numb · Apr 7, 2019

Its every easy to find pics of iron mounted Appalachia rifles. There's oodles of books on the subject. Jerry Nobel sells a 4 volume set very reasonable. And, there are several new books out on the subject as well. There are other sources than the internet for this kind of research.

Treestalker · Apr 7, 2019

Crewdawg445 said:
Pics George! Lol

I find the SMR to be a very simplistic, yet elegant design with their slender long stocks, which for me shoulder very well. Coupled with a swamped barrel the balance is spot on for me. I feel these rifles being so simple have somewhat slipped through the cracks amongst the more fancy and ornate rifles of the period. I feel that may be a good reason there just isn't much out there in terms of documentation.

I've spent my afternoon at work... Scouring through everything I could find, the ALR tip Pete posted above is a treasure trove of original images.

rich pierce · Apr 7, 2019

If you want an early iron mounted Southern rifle google the Bogle rifle.

dave_person · Apr 7, 2019

Hi Crewdawg,
CN is exactly right. There is quite a bit written about southern Appalachian guns. Dennis Glazener wrote a nice history of the Gillespie family of gun makers. Noble's books are very valuable but they are very expensive. The virtual library of original guns on the ALR site is also invaluable and has a large collection of southern rifles.

dave

Comfortably_Numb · Apr 7, 2019

I didn't realize Noble's books were expensive, I don't think I paid more than $30 a piece for them. I know he's still selling them at gunshows.

Crewdawg445 · Apr 7, 2019

Comfortably_Numb said:
Its every easy to find pics of iron mounted Appalachia rifles. There's oodles of books on the subject. Jerry Nobel sells a 4 volume set very reasonable. And, there are several new books out on the subject as well. There are other sources than the internet for this kind of research.

I agree, limiting to just the internet is not me, don't even own a computer. I have multiple books on the subject but as mentioned above in my post I'm more concerned about evidence on their actual time of existence, as in when exactly they came about, not pictures which is a simple matter indeed.

Crewdawg445 · Apr 7, 2019

Essentially I'm trying to rule out or pinpoint their existence during the later part of the 18th century. As Dave mentioned above concerning the battle of kings mountain there has been reference to such rifles existing, but can anyone be certain one way or the other? Why a rifle for such a concentrated geographical area? Many questions I'm trying to find concerning the detailed history, just not gaining much progress.

I know iron mounted rifles were rare as brass obviously is much more workable and practical to the period, however we know they did exist in relatively small numbers. Guess I'm looking for information that may be a needle in the haystack.

Also, Dave I looked for the article Dennis wrote with no luck. Do you potentially have a link or direction to it?

dave_person · Apr 7, 2019

Crewdawg,
Dennis wrote a book about the Gillespies. It is not an internet link. Try e-mailing Dennis on the ALR site. There have been a lot of folks trying to link iron mounted southern rifles to the Rev War. I am not aware of any examples to support the idea. Iron had to be forged not cast, so every iron mounted gun was a labor intensive one-off project. During colonial times, imports from Germany and England were readily available and brass mounts were easily obtainable and repeatable by casting. Iron was not. There was no good reason to mount a rifle in iron. Moreover, the frontier gun smiths were mostly trained in PA and not some local ingenue. There are many folks who want to "prove" that southern forged iron guns were important during the Rev War and used by the "over the mountain" boys. But there is no evidence of that and what evidence exists does not support the idea. There are a couple of early iron mounted guns like the Titetson rifle but they are rare and likely from late or after the AWI. Then there are the folks who insist "well the early plain jane southern iron mounted guns didn't survive". Well the problem there is that there are plenty of plain jane iron mounted southern rifles that survived and identified as made after 1820 or so with late flint era locks, but nothing earlier.

dave

tenngun · Apr 7, 2019

Crewdawg445 said:
I'm planning out a SMR rifle build and have had a rather difficult time unearthing any concrete documentation pinpointing the exact date ranges of these rifles. I know during the Revolution these types of "poor boy" designs existed and were used by the Over the mountain boys, however I'm coming to the conclusion that the term SMR, poor boy and barn gun is used very loosely to describe a broad category of arms used along the Appalachian region and into Kentucky. I just don't see iron furniture being referenced until the later part of the 1790's and into the early 19th century. Does anyone have more sources or concrete evidence concerning these great rifles they would be willing to share? Thanks gents!

Many of the surviving SMR and Tennessee rifles were anything but ‘poor boys. Often had endcaps, entry pipes, toe and butt plates. Wood might be plain fruitewood or beach but very well done. Curly maple and ash seen too. Some had silver or part silver mountings. Antler-bone and ivoryfound There way on to some of these guns

Crewdawg445 · Apr 7, 2019

dave_person said:
Crewdawg,
Dennis wrote a book about the Gillespies. It is not an internet link. Try e-mailing Dennis on the ALR site. There have been a lot of folks trying to link iron mounted southern rifles to the Rev War. I am not aware of any examples to support the idea. Iron had to be forged not cast, so every iron mounted gun was a labor intensive one-off project. During colonial times, imports from Germany and England were readily available and brass mounts were easily obtainable and repeatable by casting. Iron was not. There was no good reason to mount a rifle in iron. Moreover, the frontier gun smiths were mostly trained in PA and not some local ingenue. There are many folks who want to "prove" that southern forged iron guns were important during the Rev War and used by the "over the mountain" boys. But there is no evidence of that and what evidence exists does not support the idea. There are a couple of early iron mounted guns like the Titetson rifle but they are rare and likely from late or after the AWI. Then there are the folks who insist "well the early plain jane southern iron mounted guns didn't survive". Well the problem there is that there are plenty of plain jane iron mounted southern rifles that survived and identified as made after 1820 or so with late flint era locks, but nothing earlier.

dave

Excellent information and thank you for that. Essentially you have summed up my questions and concerns. I knew the likelyhood of such was slim as you pointed out, iron was obviously more tedious to work with than brass casting mountings.

However I'm still curious to the nature of the mountain rifle in itself. The rifle intrigues me so, likely due to the Appalachians being a second home away from home. I'll certainly contact him regarding his literature, very interested in that.

billraby · Apr 8, 2019

Crewdawg445 said:
Pics George! Lol

I find the SMR to be a very simplistic, yet elegant design with their slender long stocks, which for me shoulder very well. Coupled with a swamped barrel the balance is spot on for me. I feel these rifles being so simple have somewhat slipped through the cracks amongst the more fancy and ornate rifles of the period. I feel that may be a good reason there just isn't much out there in terms of documentation.

I've spent my afternoon at work... Scouring through everything I could find, the ALR tip Pete posted above is a treasure trove of original images.

Thinking of these rifles as simplistic would be a mistake. Seems like a lot of people think a southern rifle would be a good choice as a first gun building project due to general lack of carving and engraving. But that is the easy part. Getting the basic form right is not an easy task. A lightly decorated Pennsylvania rifle is definitely easier than a plain southern rifle.

Crewdawg445 · Apr 8, 2019

billraby said:
Thinking of these rifles as simplistic would be a mistake. Seems like a lot of people think a southern rifle would be a good choice as a first gun building project due to general lack of carving and engraving. But that is the easy part. Getting the basic form right is not an easy task. A lightly decorated Pennsylvania rifle is definitely easier than a plain southern rifle.

I certainly think you are may be misunderstanding what I mean by simplistic. I'm searching for specific information, not pictures or how easy they are or are not to build. Seems Dave is the only one who understands what I'm looking for in terms of information.

I do see were you would get that from my posting, but I'm talking about simplicity in mountings and lack of ornate details, not simplicity in building.

1950DAVE · Apr 12, 2019

Has any one referred you to the "The Tennessee Rifle" by Robin C. Hale . I found it on the net as a free PDF. Well worth the read.

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