4fg as a main charge

Has anyone tried 4fg as a main charge? If so, what caliber/gage and what were the results? Would 10 grains of 4fg be safe in a .32 percussion? robin

I member in Britain (far far east United States) reports he uses 4f in many guns with largeish charges quite successfully (he has begged for real documentation of a saftey failure and to date has none).

I myself have never used anything but 3f but there are some here who have and think nothing of it. But there are many more would not use 4f as a main charge ever. You will see here shortly.

Deputy Dog said:

Has anyone tried 4fg as a main charge? If so, what caliber/gage and what were the results? Would 10 grains of 4fg be safe in a .32 percussion? robin

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For more than a person would ever want to read about the subject, follow this link to a topic about it on the forum.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/4f-powder.113450/

Zonie, I doubt that real good will come from keeping this thread active. Let comments about 4fg powder go to the previous thread.

Frankly I think this discussion is pointless & ridiculous. Why would anyone want to use 4FG as a main charge? There is no need & certainly no benefit. 300 years & more of using the correct loads & now suddenly we want to try something new which could cause injury & deaths. This is even more stupid than batoning a good hunting knife to split kindling, & right up there with using glue to secure the base plug on a powder horn!!! Let's please have some common sense on this forum!
Keith.

Have you documentation showing 4f will cause mayhem? Back in the day a new "good" hunting knife was likely used to split wood on the first outing. Don't know about gluing powder horns, never had one? How do you secure yours? I myself and me would use many mini "tacks" and some glue, maybe gorilla glue?

So though this thread is certainly likely to turn out to be a duplicate there are more opinions than our own. I too suggest the OP seek out the suggested thread, but to just kill this one? Guy has a right to ask (again, lol) and some do have a hard time with the search feature.

Here we go,,,,,, again........

Yep. The trains left the station.

Should I cut at the muzzle or use a pre-made patch?

Deputy Dog said:

Has anyone tried 4fg as a main charge? If so, what caliber/gage and what were the results? Would 10 grains of 4fg be safe in a .32 percussion? robin

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It'll be fine partner.

B.

Le Loup said:

Frankly I think this discussion is pointless & ridiculous. Why would anyone want to use 4FG as a main charge? There is no need & certainly no benefit. 300 years & more of using the correct loads & now suddenly we want to try something new which could cause injury & deaths. This is even more stupid than batoning a good hunting knife to split kindling, & right up there with using glue to secure the base plug on a powder horn!!! Let's please have some common sense on this forum!
Keith.

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I COULD die in my car today or be injured.
I COULD fall down the stairs.
I COULD trip via my wife's miss placed bra....again!

There are in fact countless facts and stats that prove without a doubt of the risks from pending threats and risks that will and do result in harm that indeed surround us every day.
But.....I ain't ever seen or read of a single test that demonstrates a gun failure via 4f alone!
Nitro can do it in modern guns mis used or in the wrong application and it is clearly documented.....but not 4f. Ummmm.

This sounds like another "TRUMP" problem !!!

The horse is dead, lets move on.

Le Loup said:

Frankly I think this discussion is pointless & ridiculous. Why would anyone want to use 4FG as a main charge? There is no need & certainly no benefit. 300 years & more of using the correct loads & now suddenly we want to try something new which could cause injury & deaths. This is even more stupid than batoning a good hunting knife to split kindling, & right up there with using glue to secure the base plug on a powder horn!!! Let's please have some common sense on this forum!
Keith.

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Actually 4F was traditionally used as a main charge. Your statement about the past 300 yds is incorrect. In fact it was used right into the time frame of metallic cartridges, and not in just smaller calibers.

rodwha said:

Actually 4F was traditionally used as a main charge. Your statement about the past 300 yds is incorrect. In fact it was used right into the time frame of metallic cartridges, and not in just smaller calibers.

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That's all news to me, never have seen any documentation on something like that.

Brokennock said:

Here we go,,,,,, again........

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Then let us discuss and cuss: WD-40; obduration......Oh, nebber mind. That's enuf to keep us going for a month or so....

Britsmoothy said:

I COULD die in my car today or be injured.
I COULD fall down the stairs.
I COULD trip via my wife's miss placed bra....again!

There are in fact countless facts and stats that prove without a doubt of the risks from pending threats and risks that will and do result in harm that indeed surround us every day.
But.....I ain't ever seen or read of a single test that demonstrates a gun failure via 4f alone!
Nitro can do it in modern guns mis used or in the wrong application and it is clearly documented.....but not 4f. Ummmm.

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Yes sir, your number could be up, many many different ways, however the way I look at it is, what if your number is pretty far back, why do something that's going to put you in the front of the line.....Like smoking for example, or playing ping pong with the table placed on the dotted line on the interstate, or skinny dipping in a shark tank. Yeah, you'll cheat the reaper for a while, but some day he's gonna come to collect, and by doing things like using 4fg as a main charge, he's gonna show up at your door sooner than you think.

Sidney Smith said:

Yes sir, your number could be up, many many different ways, however the way I look at it is, what if your number is pretty far back, why do something that's going to put you in the front of the line.....Like smoking for example, or playing ping pong with the table placed on the dotted line on the interstate, or skinny dipping in a shark tank. Yeah, you'll cheat the reaper for a while, but some day he's gonna come to collect, and by doing things like using 4fg as a main charge, he's gonna show up at your door sooner than you think.

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There is a difference between doing things that are obviously dangerous and things that people believe are dangerous but aren't supported by evidence. There must be a proven causal relationship between the action and the outcome for the concern to be valid. In this case (and many others) there isn't anything that links the use of FFFFg as the main charge to catastrophic barrel failure except a chain of "they said...." statements lacking any support.

But as posted above, there is an entire thread where this topic has been discussed in some detail. I suggest reading those posts.

Comfortably_Numb said:

That's all news to me, never have seen any documentation on something like that.

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Yes. There’s a fellow who tested original Hazard’s paper cartridges in .44 cal. This is one of the various paper cartridges the US military supplied their troops with. Opening one showed it to contain granulation of 4F size and testing showed it to be on par with Swiss powder. Look at how the Hazard’s Pistol Powder cartridges were loaded:



That’s not a small powder charge for a .44. The bullet may not be all that heavy, but it’s certainly heavier than a ball and will generate more pressure due to that additional weight plus the additional bearing surface.

There’s a museum curator who had to disassemble metallic cartridges for display and found 4F in quite a few of them, and in some even finer. And these cartridges sometimes had a .4 in front of it.

You can even look at the older Swiss powder containers and see that in Europe 4F is used in handguns:



And if you have the 1st Edition of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook you can see tested 4F Goex loads in a Colt Army:

navigate me to the closest gas station

With all of this said I’d not recommend someone to against the manufacturer’s directions, and with the few energetic powders available I see no real need to anyway. 3F Swiss, Olde Eynsford, or Triple 7 can produce ballistics akin to a .45 ACP. In essence you’d be recreating the .45 Scofield. My NMA uses my 195 grn WFN bullets of .460” length and a weighed 33 grns (30 grns measured) of 3F Olde E with a bit of room to spare, which I’m considering filling with lead after I modify my design and get a new mold.

Before the internet to keep us safe and before i knew anyone who had a black powder gun i was given a pound of ffffg. I used it in my CVA 45 cal Kentucky rifle. My load was 60grs and a prb.
I didn't notice much difference, the cans and such i shot didn't look different.

The above is true, the names have been changed to protect the innocent.