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California shooters?

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Check out this topic from a few years back by Roundball on using brass balls. https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/field-report-solid-brass-prb-in-58cal.81324/#post-1025954

I would think that the materials composing hunting projectiles would need to be approved by CA Wildlife authorities and be declared as being non-toxic.
Californians cannot simply legally hunt with projectiles just because they think that they're safe.
They may need to be proven to be safe by certified lab analysis and then listed by the agency as being acceptable.

Brass may indeed be eligible to be approved as being non-toxic when it comes from a particular supplier.
But I don't know if that's the case in CA concerning any and all brass balls that happen to be for sale on the open market place.

Concerning the toxicity of brass, someone on Quora wrote:
How much brass is safe for a human to ingest?

"...brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. Lead is often added in concentrations of around 2%. In California, lead-free materials must be used for "each component that comes into contact with the wetted surface of pipes and in pipe fittings, plumbing fittings and fixtures." On January 1, 2010, the maximum amount of lead in "lead-free brass" in California was reduced from 4% to 0.25% lead. Lead-free brass usually contains silicon, as a replacement for lead..... So, how much lead is safe to ingest? The clear answer is none. "
 
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I WORKED WITH A GENTLEMAN WHO HAD MANY ACRES OFHUNTING GROUNDS WHO FIGUREDOUT HOW TO SUBSTITUTE BIZMUTH ALLOY WITH SOME SUCCESS. . I WROTE IT UP IN MY BOOK WHICH I CAN NO LONGER READ.. THE BALLS CAST WERE SLIGHTLY LIGHTER AND IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, A BIT SMALLER WHEN COOLED..WITH THE USUAL ADJUSTMENTS OF PATCHING AND SLIGHT LUBRICATION, I BELIEVE THEY WERE SUCCESSFUL. ALTHOUGH HE HE NEVER EPORTED BACK.

DUTCH SCHOULTZ

Excuse me but, it's not the condor's fault. Blame it on the gun grabbing liberal,
progressive, communist, nut cases... Just sayin'
 
Simplest solution is to go visit your local California compliant tire shop. Lead alloy wheelweights are supposedly outlawed there, but replacements have been in use already for a few years made of tin. Tin is harder than lead, but for a PRB, I'd rather cast my own tin balls than hunt around for brass, steel or marbles for my ML.
 
Simplest solution is to go visit your local California compliant tire shop. Lead alloy wheelweights are supposedly outlawed there, but replacements have been in use already for a few years made of tin. Tin is harder than lead, but for a PRB, I'd rather cast my own tin balls than hunt around for brass, steel or marbles for my ML.

Besides Federally approved non-toxic shot, here's an updated list of projectiles-materials-suppliers certified for use in CA.--->>> https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/hunting/nonlead-ammunition/certified
It seems pretty clear that applications need to be submitted in order to gain approval for a type of non-toxic projectiles [probably by having it tested].
For instance, ITX round balls are listed under TOMBOB OUTDOORS LLC.
Under ROTALMETALS INC there are several casting products including different formulations of bismuth, pewter[tin] and Zamak [zinc].

Also note below about the certification process and requirements:--->>> https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Hunting/Nonlead-Ammunition/Certification


"Nonlead Certification for Ammunition Manufacturers

Effective July 1, 2008, ammunition used for hunting of big game and nongame species within the range of the California condor must use a projectile which has been certified to contain less than or equal to 1 percent lead by weight. Projectiles here are defined as "any bullet, ball, sabot, slug, buckshot or other device which is expelled from a firearm through a barrel by force....
...CDFW and the California Fish and Game Commission have developed a process to certify projectiles as meeting the nonlead threshold (less than or equal to one percent lead content) for purposes of these regulations. Manufacturers are required to undergo an application process to have their ammunition certified as legal for use. If you would like your product(s) considered as legal projectiles in California, please submit a Nonlead Cartridge/Projectile Certification Application."

The downloaded application states that a private person can have their own projectile approved and remain private and not be included on the public list.
But an application to use it legally still needs to be approved.
 
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Just a little addendum to post #7 -

Quote - The California condor has been protected as an endangered species by federal law since 1967 and by California state law since 1971. In the 1970s, biologists found that only a few dozen condors remained in the wild. In 1980, a major conservation project was started to try to keep the birds from becoming extinct.
They were a concern in the 1960's. There's actually a "Beverly Hillbillies" episode that featured the California Condor with the Clampetts thing the "Condors" was a poor family.
 
Simplest solution is to go visit your local California compliant tire shop. Lead alloy wheelweights are supposedly outlawed there, but replacements have been in use already for a few years made of tin. Tin is harder than lead, but for a PRB, I'd rather cast my own tin balls than hunt around for brass, steel or marbles for my ML.

Tire weights are now zinc or steel, not tin. I wish they were tin! Tin is very expensive and necessary to cast good bullets for unmentionable guns. Typically wheel weights are now zinc. Do not melt zinc in you lead pot or use it in you molds. If you do all the tools will be ruined for use with lead. Trace amounts of zinc makes lead cast like oatmeal.

Whatever you use you will need to show written proof to the warden that you are using a certified non lead projectile. Nothing that one home-brews meets the standard. If stopped and you can not prove what you are shooting they will take your gear for evaluation by a crime lab.
 
I have killed hundreds and hundreds of deer with lead balls and bullets. I never found one inside a deer. To have a bird eating lead from a kill is as unreal as you can get. Kaiforification says a wheel weight is dangerous if lead and they are along every road. Animals do not eat them. Have you ever lost a wheel weight? I wish! I want to find free weights on a road. In 81 years I can honestly say I found only one after an accident. The most polluted state ever with no water of their own dictates to the country about lead and smog. People and businese's flee the liberal state. The big problem I see is they take the liberal ways with them and ruin where they move to. I see it here in our stupid home owners association when those from Mary Land escape. Get out and fix what you don't like.
 
I have killed hundreds and hundreds of deer with lead balls and bullets. I never found one inside a deer. To have a bird eating lead from a kill is as unreal as you can get. Kaiforification says a wheel weight is dangerous if lead and they are along every road. Animals do not eat them. Have you ever lost a wheel weight? I wish! I want to find free weights on a road. In 81 years I can honestly say I found only one after an accident. The most polluted state ever with no water of their own dictates to the country about lead and smog. People and businese's flee the liberal state. The big problem I see is they take the liberal ways with them and ruin where they move to. I see it here in our stupid home owners association when those from Mary Land escape. Get out and fix what you don't like.

Minnesota DNR did a first of it's kind lead fragmentation study of various popular game bullets.

"Information discovered in spring 2008 indicates that small lead fragments often are present in hunter-harvested venison, particularly ground venison. As a result, the Minnesota DNR conducted the first-of-its-kind lead fragmentation study to simulate how different types of bullets commonly used for deer hunting might fragment."

Video summary:--->>> http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/fish_wildlife/lead/index.htm

Reference page to see the full study:--->>> https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/ammo/lead.html


 
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I think very little lead is shed or "lost" off of a round ball shot into a big game animal----but some is lost. It only takes a piece of lead the size of a grain of rice to kill 3 or 4 bald eagles. The gut pile from game animals or the entire carcass from unretrieved animals contains lead fragments no one could ever find. It would be criminal if the California Condor became extinct just because sportsmen had to keep using lead.
 
I think very little lead is shed or "lost" off of a round ball shot into a big game animal----but some is lost. It only takes a piece of lead the size of a grain of rice to kill 3 or 4 bald eagles. The gut pile from game animals or the entire carcass from unretrieved animals contains lead fragments no one could ever find. It would be criminal if the California Condor became extinct just because sportsmen had to keep using lead.
Has there been a verified case of a hunter eating lead laced venison and dying?
 
I'd read the Minnesota study on lead above. I believe the California ban involves concerns for endangered condors and birds of prey, not so much for us humans. I do, however, do my best to remove pellets from doves, ducks, and pheasants so I don't eat it. Probably wouldn't kill me but can't be good to ingest if you don't have to. One round ball weighed 224 grains before killing a deer and 222 grains as a flattened slug afterward. I probably could have eaten the 2 grains or it was left in the gut pile.
 
In all honesty. At common trad muzzleloader ranges game are shot at.
A large bore and a steel ball bearing with a thick patch is going to suffice.
Small bores would still take small game thus.
Shot for birds you're screwed other than buying the fancy stuff.
A simple regime or protocol could be devised to prevent dry balling.
 
I'd read the Minnesota study on lead above. I believe the California ban involves concerns for endangered condors and birds of prey, not so much for us humans. I do, however, do my best to remove pellets from doves, ducks, and pheasants so I don't eat it. Probably wouldn't kill me but can't be good to ingest if you don't have to. One round ball weighed 224 grains before killing a deer and 222 grains as a flattened slug afterward. I probably could have eaten the 2 grains or it was left in the gut pile.

I guess I wonder if condors, or eagles for that matter, eat enough lead tainted meat to have an impact on their populations? It would seem like that hunters, particularly those whose diet is primarily meat harvested with lead projectiles, as may be the case with muzzleloaders and their families. My kids, and now my grandkids, think hamburgers and beefsteaks taste weird because they’ve eaten mostly venison, upland game, and ducks and geese all of their lives. We do buy some pork and chicken from local ranchers.

Just how many wounded animals are California hunters leaving for the condors to eat? My suspicion is that the lead ban doesn’t have all that much to do with saving the condors and eagles...
 
"California’s hunters report killing fewer than 5,000 wild pigs each year, a fraction of the state's feral hog population, estimated at between 200,000 and 400,000.
California has the fourth largest population of wild pigs in the country behind Texas, Florida and Georgia.
Meanwhile, feral pigs cause California's farmers and ranchers around $2 million in damage annually..."--->>>https://www.sacbee.com/latest-news/article213531964.html#storylink=cpy

There's a significant overlap between the condor protection zone and areas where wild pigs have been harvested in the past.--->>> https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Portals/0/Images/Game/WildPig/2001map_cropped.png
 
Haha,

On behalf of all the 'blamed' nut-jobs, who live in (and love) the Golden State, I'd like to invite all the California-bashers to continue to bless us with the sublime pleasure of your absence... and those who are planning to move away due to the above-mentioned maladies, I'd quote my paternal grandmother (a true Southerner, born and bred) who was fond of saying, "Don't let da do' hitcha where the Good Lawd done splitcha."
 
I wonder if the issue with lead and birds has to do with having a gizzard. Birds injest small gravel and rocks into the gizzard to grind up food for digestion. If a bird of prey eats a dead animal with lead or picks up lead on the ground, the lead may end up in the gizzard. For humans and other mammals the lead would just pass through with minimal effect whereas a bird may retain the lead and it will continue to grind away and result in much more lead in the system and lead poisoning.
 
Cast does not fragment like bullets. Maybe a jacketed will leave some lead behind but birds do not eat WW's on the roads either. The gizzard needs stones or sand.
 
Dunno the details, but a bud got some of that while ordering some other stuff and tried casting pistol bullets with it just cuzz his pot and mold were hot. He sezz it worked fine, so I have to guess it would be fruitful grounds for round ball tests. The details I don't know are size out of the mold compared to other alloys or pure lead and casting temp.

"Twas me casting and hunting in CA, I'd carry a copy of the factory description and my invoice on hunts in case the question came up and be prepared to share a sample ball or two with the wardens for their own testing. Not exactly a novel concept, because I do the same when using a muzzleloading shotgun when duck hunting with ITX or bismuth shot. The wardens never took me up on my offer of samples, but they were much reassured by my paper and cooperation.

One thing to remember. Guys probably have no choice about living and hunting in California. Beating up on them here does them and us no good, and it's about as fair as slashing a guy's tires cuzz his rental car has the wrong license plates. Seen that happen, so it's not theoretical.

Most DO have a choice about where they live, but over time they have gotten used to living under a socialist government, and, frankly, don't see it as so bad.
I never understood why they continue to stay there and pay the taxes that fund the madness.
 
Most DO have a choice about where they live, but over time they have gotten used to living under a socialist government, and, frankly, don't see it as so bad.
I never understood why they continue to stay there and pay the taxes that fund the madness.
But, unto each his own.
 
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