Minie Question?

In a repro, how many shots can you fire from a rifle musket before it fouls too much to load?

Best I've been able to do before loading gets real hard is 5 shots.

Longest match courses of fire I have are 19 shots - one match comprises 1 initial 'warmer' then 1 sighter and 5 shots to count at each distance 200, 300, 400 yards. The MLAGB National 600 yard Championship is 1 'warmer', 3 sighters and 15 match shots. I don't clean until I finish shooting. Standard MLAIC 100m course of fire is 1 warmer and 13 match shots (best 10 to count) - cleaning between shots is not permitted. All these events are fired with original or repro. rifles.

David

If I put the right amount of lube in the hollow base I can shoot all day with accuracy. I am using 45 grains Olde Eynsford FFFg. Too much lube and it reduces accuracy, not enough and fouling starts to build up. With the "Burton" bullet, the grooves are not for lube but to be "scrapers" to help remove fouling from previous shots. Without the lube in the base I need to clean the bore after about 20 shots.

curator said:

With the "Burton" bullet, the grooves are not for lube but to be "scrapers" to help remove fouling from previous shots.

Click to expand...

Curious... can you point me in the direction of any primary source documentation that supports this please?

In the published reports of 'Experiments with the Regulation Rifle', Harpers Ferry, October 1854, note is made of trials with round ball, the Pritchett elongated expanding ball and the "French cylindro-ogee ball, converted into a self-expanding ball by Mr. Burton, master armorer at Harper's Ferry." The report continues "In conseqence of cutting away the lead around the cylindrical part of the Harper's Ferry ball, for the purpose of forming the grooves, the loading of this ball was found to be easier than that of the Pritchett ball. The grooves were also found to be very convenient for the purpose of holding the grease necessary to lubricate the bore of the barrel after each discharge."

In the 'Experiments with Small Arms' (Springfield Armory, 1855) and in describing the projectiles, it notes three groove bullets were used. The report further noted "The general rule observed was to load the balls without paper or patch of any kind. The composition of beeswax and tallow, with which the cylindrical portion of each ball was covered, was found under all circumstances of temperature, &c., sufficient to render the loading easy."

David

I believe the reference should have been Williams bullet instead of Burton. Although Burton designed the minie as used in the CW with the grooves for lube, Williams designed the cleaner bullet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_cleaner_bullet

I fired 25 .533 Minies through my Mississippi rifle, no cleaning, went right down the pipe , good accuracy. Could easily have fired all day if I had more.

I fired 80 Pritchett Cartridges through my P-H Musketoon, no problems.

If you are only able to fire 5 Minies before having to clean the bore you need to either get a push through sizer , use a slightly smaller size, and/or change lube.

For example using a .575 vs a .577 can make a huge difference

ikesdad said:

I believe the reference should have been Williams bullet instead of Burton.

Click to expand...

Williams bullet as I understood was designed as an improvement over the simpler Burton bullet. It included a pin in the base that on firing was driven into the bullet cavity forcing expansion of the bullet at the front part first. At the same time a concave tin disc, between pin and bullet base, was flattened and expanded into the rifling. The purpose of the disk, according to Williams’ patent, was to eliminate windage. Any bore cleaning properties of the bullet were a secondary benefit and I don’t think were referred to in his patents - although this action lead to their description as ‘cleaner bullets’. Insofar as I have found Williams’ primary goal was a more accurate bullet.

I’ve not found any reference to Williams bullets being used without lubricant in the grooves, and the base pin would prevent the use a lube in the cavity as Mr. Curator describes in his shooting above.

David

Regardless of whatever reason he designed the bullet with the discs, they were adopted by the Federal Govt as cleaning bullets and issued as such to the troops, who threw most away.

ikesdad said:

..they were adopted by the Federal Govt as cleaning bullets...

Click to expand...

I don't dispute that - I gather they were made in the millions. It does not however answer my original question though regarding Mr. Curator's assertion that the grooves in the Burton bullet were not for lube, nor have I found anything that suggests the Williams bullets were used without lube. I'd understood the cleaning action of the Williams bullet was from the expansion of the concave tin disk into the rifling and nothing to do with the grooves in the bullet.

David

I am reading the originals had progressive depth rifling while today’s repros have standard rifling. Some are saying you can use a smaller diameter minie in the originals and yet get good accuracy. Seems the modern repros with normal rifling need a tighter minie, and one would think they would foul faster. Is this a correct assumption?

I am considering a Pedersoli 2 band Enfield musket at the moment, but do not want to purchase one if it will foul out in just a few shots when using minies 1-2 thou smaller than bore diameter that must be used for best accuracy.

Yes, the originals had progressive depth rifling, as did the reproductions made by Parker-Hale.

Re. smaller size Minié in originals... I’ve not come across that ‘advice’. Are you/they suggesting a ‘looser’ fit bullet is acceptable with an original, or just that the bore diameter of originals is smaller than that on current repros? Irrespective of the bore diameter you need a well fitting bullet to expand into the rifling on firing.

I have no experience with the Pedersoli reproduction, hopefully someone who has can add comment on whether there are fouling issues with the uniform depth rifling.

David

My .54 Euroarms Mississippi will shoot all day with .533 unsized Lyman thick skirt Minies, from Track of the Wolf. People say the Lyman mold drops a .535 bullet.

I don't know what my bore mics at but those minies glide right down and shoot tight so that's what I'm gonna keep using


I ordered a .535 sizer and want to set up for casting but the guy who sells the sizers is very old and keeps forgetting to ship it.