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Rifle Butt Position - On or Off Shoulder

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Thompson

Pilgrim
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I recently talked to a long-time muzzleloader who told me that most early muzzleloading rifles were meant to be shot with the butt fitted down off of the shoulder slightly-kind of between the shoulder and the bicep (kind of on the upper arm to some degree). This is in contrast to the modern rifle that is tucked in on the inside of the shoulder. I have yet to try it on the range to see what it feels like. I am wondering if this has something to do with many early rifles having a trigger pull length that seems short to me. Is that correct and I have been missing out? Any thoughts or experiences to share? Thanks.
 
Depends on the butt plate shape,,
Flat ones can be shot from the shoulder much like modern
The curved butt is made to fit off the shoulder or pointed up into the trees,, :wink: :grin:
 
My rifle has a crescent shaped buttplate, too curved to tuck deep into my shoulder. I hook it more on the upper arm close to the shoulder by the armpit...if that makes any sense. :idunno:
 
Welcome to the Forum. :)

The really old butt plate shape on rifles made around the time of the Revolutionary War were quite flat and very wide.
They were shot off of the shoulder like modern guns and shotguns are.

In the 1830-1860 time period the width of the butt plates were reduced and the curvature became very pronounced.
These rifles with the very deeply curved butt plates were positioned on the arm just off of the shoulder. When shot this way they work quite well but if one attempts to position one of these butt plates right on the shoulder like a modern gun they will be very uncomfortable to shoot.
 
Welcome Antelope Totem. Where the butt ends up, on your shoulder or arm, depends on shape of the butt plate (as Necchi mentioned) and also the length of pull, amount of drop, and the build of the shooter. In other words, if you have a gun that naturally fits comfortably, and tight, on your shoulder, mounting it on your arm will probably feel awkward and cause aiming and recoil problems, and vice versa if it already feels right on your arm.

I started out with a T/C Hawken that fit just right between my shoulder and bicep. I remember because that's where the bruise would occur if I shot it all day at a rendezvous or other event. My dad would tell me I needed to pull it into my shoulder more, but when I relaxed and got a natural point of aim at the target, the butt went right back where it started.

I'm not sure why the cresent butt plate came into play during that 1830-1860 time period, but I've heard things like it was easier to shoot with heavy clothing, or better for shooting off horseback. Zonie, any idea why it became popular during that era? What was the benefit? Bill
 
I am with Zonie. The early ones were tucked under the arm (pole arms). By the time the flintlock came along they were fired off the shoulder like is routine today. It's the late flintlocks and percussion arms that went knutzy with the crescent buttplates.

And what kind of stock suits the Creedmore position?

back01.jpg


back05.jpg


Who can account for target shooters? :idunno:

Note that in image one he's not courting dental diasater - his foot is across the sling.
 
Antelope Totem said:
I am wondering if this has something to do with many early rifles having a trigger pull length that seems short to me.

Seems like that would make a too-short LOP worse.

At any rate, I don't shoot any longgun down on the arm outside the bulge of the shoulder...I shoot them all off the bulge of the shoulder and there's no problems...both cresent shaped butt plates with the toe down into the crease of the armpit, and flat butt plates flat.
 
Antelope Totem said:
I recently talked to a long-time muzzleloader who told me that most early muzzleloading rifles were meant to be shot with the butt fitted down off of the shoulder slightly-kind of between the shoulder and the bicep (kind of on the upper arm to some degree). This is in contrast to the modern rifle that is tucked in on the inside of the shoulder. I have yet to try it on the range to see what it feels like. I am wondering if this has something to do with many early rifles having a trigger pull length that seems short to me. Is that correct and I have been missing out? Any thoughts or experiences to share? Thanks.


Schuetzen rifles with a "hooked" buttplate cannot be shot from the shoulder.

So it depends entirely on the buttplate design.

For in the shoulder pocket.
DSC03676.jpg


For off the arm.
IMGP0913.jpg


Schuetzen rifle. http://www.gunsinternational.com/W...UETZEN-RIFLE-IN-25-20-SS.cfm?gun_id=100107765


Shooting style is usually much different too.
Dan
 
Last edited by a moderator:
"...Zonie, any idea why it became popular during that era? What was the benefit? Bill"
----------------

I've never read or come up on my own, the reason for the deeply curved or hooked butt plates.

It might have been an attempt to force the shooter to mount the gun the same every time. That is to say, with a flat butt you can position the butt of the gun high or low and, except for the feel of the stocks cheek piece it will feel pretty much the same.

With a deeply hooked butt plate mounted on the arm it would be pretty hard to mount the gun differently every time you shot it.

This might be more obvious if one were wearing a heavy hunting coat during the winter?

I've also heard of the theory that the deeply hooked butt plate could be positioned in the stirrup of a saddle to facilitate loading while mounted on a horse.
 
If there's a smallish hooked butt and biggish recoil, you'll wish you had shot on your arm rather than your shoulder. The telling detail for me in addition to butt dimensions is cast-off.
 
The crescent or hooked butt is shot far differently that the shotgun stance that can be used with a shotgun butt as on the English rifle in my previous post.
Shot off the arm the rifle is actually pointed across the chest. If the rules allow this allows the upper arm to be braced against the chest wall and if short waisted the elbow on the hip bone. This great enhances stability offhand, works even better with a palm rest.
In this case the crescent butt makes for better offhand shooting performing much like the long hook on a Schuetzen plate. The hook on the Schuetzen plate means the shooting hand need put no significant pressure on the stock. All it needs to do is grip the TG so that the trigger can be touched. Some Schuetzen rifles have ver complex multi-lever triggers that remove all tension from the firing trigger. some have a bar to rest the finger on with a thin wire for the actual trigger. VERY light triggers in some cases.
The English style rifle above I shoot more like a shotgun since it shots a 1 ounce ball. My swivel breech has a flat butt and I still shoot it across my body with or without my upper arm on the side of the chest wall.
The crescent but was likely a fashion statement or it grew out of German Schuetzen shooting take your pick. In any case it hung on in American until the 20th century being the standard "rifle butt" on many Winchesters etc.

Dan
 
Well, I tried the bicep/shoulder idea with my .50 cal. TC Hawken, and it bruised the snot out of me. I went back to the inside of the shoulder joint, and the pain went away. As you can probably tell from my avatar, I'm rather short and wide. With the butt out on my bicep, I had a devil of a time tilting my head far enough to line up the sights. If shooting it with the butt in the shoulder pocket is wrong, then I guess I'll just keep doing it wrong. At least it doesn't hurt and I can generally hit what I shoot at that way. YMMV!
 
In discussions of deep crescent butt plates it seems to me one very important thing gets overlooked, the coolness factor. I'd bet such butt plates were considered cool. Consider the cool stocks put on center fire rifles in the "space age," with high rollover combs and recurve pistol grips that jamb all the fingers up. They were a passing fad. Deep crescent buttplates came and went in about the same way. Think of them as being sort of like big tailfins on cars.

Maker's like the Vincent's very likely put these tailfins on their guns to set their work apart from that of others when a half-stocked, percussion sameness became the norm.

Also, such buttplates are most often, if not always found on rifles built in well settled areas, pricipally Ohio, where wild Indians and big game were no longer to be found. Rifle shooting was largely recreational and only secondarily for hunting and tertiarily for defenses. Gamesmanship was in my opinion a big factor in rifle design in those parts and those days. Also, deep crescent buttplates are found on small bore rifles and not heavy kickers.

Finally, when rifles were specifically built for serious purposes, whether in early Pennsylvania, or later for service on the plains or in the mountains they were always fitted with buttplates meant for firing off the shoulder and not the upper arm.

Deep crescent butt plates were and are a folly.
 
Target butt plates by MEC and Anschutz are still available with deep (though adjustable) crescents and target hooks, shutzen buttplates are still used as well. They are that way because they work for their purpose. If you are shooting "chunk guns" across a log you will more likely have a straight butt, for offhand it will depend. But as one noted earlier, the castoff is one of the telling dimensions.

Fashion only goes so far. And in a world where the most popular sport was shooting, anything that could be a benefit would be tried. If it worked it would be tried more.
 
I own two rifles with mild crescent butt plates and one with a serious crescent. The two mild ones are fired from the shoulder pocket; but the rifle with a truly curved butt plate is fired from the upper arm. But as it's a .32 it also gets fired from the shoulder about half the time. In fact, the only problem with shooting the .32 from the shoulder is the propensity for the toe of the plate to snag when "shouldered". I've owned a few others in the past with severe crescents and the only one that left a bruise was a .50. The squirrel calibers kicked like BB guns.
 
Finally, when rifles were specifically built for serious purposes, whether in early Pennsylvania, or later for service on the plains or in the mountains they were always fitted with buttplates meant for firing off the shoulder and not the upper arm.

I don't think one would want to fire an original S. Hawken or even later J&S Hawken off the shoulder with that crescent curved butt plate (although not as extreme as those found on some SMR's) and the toe especially in the common larger calibers of the day. I know I fire mine mounted in the "gap" between the shoulder and the bicep.

Just sayin....
 
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