Traditions .32 cal Crockett kit build

railshot said:

Thanks 30coupe,
Good advice, and that thought had crossed my mind to steam that area a bit.

But after looking at the way the work was done, and the shape of the stock, I think I will be doing a reshaping of the stock anyway, so more than likely I will be stripping the whole rifle and starting over.
It turned out quite red, and I am not a big fan of that.

Click to expand...

Been there, done that, lol! Just thought I'd save you a bit of work if I could.

30coupe said:

Been there, done that, lol! Just thought I'd save you a bit of work if I could.

Click to expand...

We all have.
I was just disassembling the Kentucky, and there are so many things I do not like about what I did back in September when I was just restarting to build these, that I am checking into a complete stock replacement.

Yeah, it was not on my list of things to purchase, but when it arrived, the stock was actually damaged at the butt plate.
I did not care all that much then, but now that I am getting more and more into this building thing, it is bugging the manure out of me!

See what you guys have created! Heheh….

Man, that is ugly, and my fitment of the stock to the butt plate is horrible to the point of being.... well let's just say I hesitated posting this shot of it taken this morning!

A little Kentucky stock work update here:
Bottom line, buy a kit with a walnut or a known matching wood type butt and fore stock, or better yet, buy a one piece!

I did not buy this one, it was a gift that inspired my other builds.
All I can say about this kit is approach with caution!

Because my next kit won't be here until mid next week (hopefully), I have had some time to play with the Kentucky stock.
Just adding this for anyone that is considering a Traditions Kentucky with a split stock as a kit, or any other split stock kit.

I completely sanded the stock, and re-stained it yet again.

Now I really do not care all that much about this particular stock, as I am getting a replacement due to the cracks and chipping when new, so I decided to purchase some Traditions walnut stock stain to test it out.

Results are below, but due to this particular type of wood, beechwood (I can only assume beechwood, as it is listed as a "select" hardwood on the Traditions site), it takes the Traditions stain very unevenly.... heck it takes any stain unevenly.

More comments under the pictures!....
Yes, the brass divider between the two stock 1/2s is out of whack, and that is partially my fault.

Not totally though...
When you drill the holes for the tenons through the forestock, the rifle needs to be assembled.
The nose cap actually controls where the fore stock is when drilling, and the barrel tang controls where the butt stock is.
These are pre drilled holes for the barrel tang and endcap, and they are off enough to cause a gap in the stock there.

My thoughts are that a thicker brass shim in that area would fix it, and I just may try that while I am waiting.



Notice the gap on the brass divider.




Due to the stock being split where the brass insert is, if the woods are different, or from different cuts, it will look like this.
I almost think they are two different types of wood?
Each takes stain differently, and the grains are quite different.

I really did take my time to get both 1/2's to the same finish when sanding (150 grit), and each has the exact same number of coats of stain, using the Traditions stain on them.

I encountered this when I first built this one, so nothing new to me, but wanted to point this out if anyone else decides on a split stock Kentucky from anywhere.
It takes quite a bit of "creative staining" to make it look even 1/2 way decent like I had it previously.

Hope this helps someone down the road, and yes, I am still enjoying doing this and at the same time learning and improving my skill level.

I'm pretty sure not pieces of wood are the same sort. What I see is a lot of end grain soaking up stain differently than edge grain. It's the same sort of thing that makes stained tiger stripe maple all tigery. However beech ain't maple.

Also, the darkest area appears to maybe have more spring wood than late season wood. Spring wood will soak up a lot more stain. It goes with my first comment.

The butt section was cut from a very twisted part of a tree. The front half from a pretty straight piece. That has a lot to do with the color differences.

As for the gaps around the brass, just use a thicker piece of brass, or pieces of brass. Most hardware or hobby stores with airplane model making or train making sections have brass sheet.

Think about this. If you add brass, think about doing some file work to the edges, making the brass more decorative.

The gaps where the buttplate meets the wood look to be in part the result of not working the brass and metal down togther, and not being careful about maintaing angles. That may be one the manfacturer or it may be on you. The gaps can be eleminated by moving the buttplate forward.

kansas_volunteer said:

I'm pretty sure not pieces of wood are the same sort. What I see is a lot of end grain soaking up stain differently than edge grain. It's the same sort of thing that makes stained tiger stripe maple all tigery. However beech ain't maple.

Also, the darkest area appears to maybe have more spring wood than late season wood. Spring wood will soak up a lot more stain. It goes with my first comment.

The butt section was cut from a very twisted part of a tree. The front half from a pretty straight piece. That has a lot to do with the color differences.

As for the gaps around the brass, just use a thicker piece of brass, or pieces of brass. Most hardware or hobby stores with airplane model making or train making sections have brass sheet.

Think about this. If you add brass, think about doing some file work to the edges, making the brass more decorative.

Click to expand...

Always good input kansas_volunteer and appreciated!

Learned something new today from you about spring wood, and never really gave it any thought until now.
Fast growth vs. slow growth type of thing I would guess.
The stock is definitely a blend of either, wood types, and / or cuts from within the same family of wood.
Sure makes staining a pain in the butt to get even......

I have been mulling over that little brass shim, and I am starting to think that maybe a spacer around 1/4" to 1/2" thick would look pretty good there, and then, like you said, some type of decoration or engraving on that.
The making of the replacement would be quite simple, as it truly is just a shim with 2 dowel holes and another hole for the ramrod to go through, and I have a very nice template to do it with.

I sure wish my engraving skills were above those of a pre-schooler, but I think I would not mind paying to have something nice done there if I do go that route. Heheh….
I can see me adding a patch box with a similar design..... oh boy, here I go..... Heheh

I could shorten up one side of the stock to match what I add to the shim, or a little off of both ends. It is pretty much a 90 degree cut there on the stock.
It is not a structural part, just a shim to hide a joint.

I am liking that idea more and more as I type this.
Thanks!

It's maybe too late a night to be muzzleloading, but here goes. My thought on the brass spacer is to build a sandwich of thin stock, doing file work on the edge of some and leave others smooth. I'd leave the bits next to the wood smooth. It could be made to look sorta like engraving. If you want thicker brass perhaps you could buy a brass house number at the hardware store and cut it up. Just an idea. I have a big 1 in my junk box for such a use if i need it. I found it laying somewhere. It is fairly thick and heavy.

I've never tried engraving, and won't. My hands don't handle fine work. You ought to see my sewing, it hasn't improved since I was 8-years-old. I set out to make a kilt once and it took me and my bad fingers a week to do what others were doing in less than an hour.

I bought a beautiful "Hawkin" stock with fully engraved metal from a man who had only taken up engraving to do that one stock, which he wanted to make special. Maybe you should try it.

I think this will be my last post on this particular thread / post for the Kentucky, within my Crockett build thread, but had to add these to the finality of the Kentucky re visit.

I have found my favorite stain today!
The weather was poor, I was bored, so I decided to experiment on the Kentucky stock today while I could.

This stock means little to me due to the flaws fresh out of the box, so I am using it as a platform to experiment on..... dang it, I like it now.

Today, I found an oil based stain at my local Ace Hardware called Kona by Varathane.
It is a very dark stain, but meets all of my requirements for a very used, but loved, rifle as far as color.

Here is a shot before I used the Kona stain on my Kentucky.
Pardon the "doggy bacon to the top left".....
heheh, Chewy really is a slob, but he does love bacon doggy treats!




Here are a couple of shots of the Kentucky after applying the Varathane Kona stain over, yes, directly over the Traditions stain.




Due to the stock taking stain differently in many areas, this stain has actually evened it out quite a bit.
On my next build, I will be using this stain from the get go, so look for that build once I start it if you are interested, as this will be my last post here!

It is amazing how much the stain you choose changes the overall look of the stock.

I personally love the look of a used, but loved, rifle / gun, and this is the look I am hoping for from here on out.

I tried this stain also on the "Hawken" I built from Traditions, and it really did even out the coloring considerably.

"Hawken" by Traditions before re-stain.
Notice the lighter area towards the muzzle on the stock from my initial build.



"Hawken" after re-stain tonight with the new stain.



Heheh, yeah, I am redoing that one also, and I really do like the "fish belly" on the stock so I am leaving it!
From what I have been reading, this is more of an Ohio feature, but I do like it and am proud of the way I have blended it into the butt plate on this one, so yeah, it is a "railshot" kit build circa 2018.
I do sign all of my builds in a hidden area known only to me for now, so 200 years from now at least someone will know who did this crappy kit build job!
Heheh.

Tonight, around midnight, I am going to start the boiled linseed oil routine on both of these, and I know from past experience, it is going to bring out some very nice grain details.

Here we go again, once a day for a week, once a week for a month, once a month for a year, and once a year ……. forever..... Or..... until it is just so sticky that you cannot let go of it!

I hope this will help someone make some informed decisions down the road about stock finishes, without having to take the 3 month trip I have on both of these builds.

It may have been covered here already, but I like to explore, experiment, and discover myself.

The Kona stain really does improve the looks of those rifles. I have a Crockett that I built some time ago that will benefit from a strip and redo like your Kentucky.

I have a Kentucky I will be putting together. It is going to need some work. Mark/WI

Could that brass spacer be left out when building that kit? What readjustment to fitment would have to be made if left out?

Yes, it can be deleted. There are two ways to accomplish this. Cut a similar piece of wood the same thickness as the brass spacer and simply use it rather than the brass. You could omit the brass and press the two pieces together although, it may require deepening the holes for the dowels a slight amount. Fit a wood or brass spacer between the stock and nose cap to make up for the difference.

Jdavis said:

Yes, it can be deleted. There are two ways to accomplish this. Cut a similar piece of wood the same thickness as the brass spacer and simply use it rather than the brass. You could omit the brass and press the two pieces together although, it may require deepening the holes for the dowels a slight amount. Fit a wood or brass spacer between the stock and nose cap to make up for the difference.

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Interesting thoughts on leaving the spacer out..... I just may try that soon.
I do not like the way it looks with the brass spacer anywho, so eh, why not.
The spacer will make for a very nice template also.

This stock will be going to be replaced soon, and I like to play a bit, so thanks for the idea!

The Traditions Kentucky kit my daughter asked for arrived and will be under the Christmas tree. That two-piece stock troubled me when I purchased it and now I'm even more apprehensive. Please keep updating us here or on a new thread on the changes you make. The Kona stain looks terrific and is likely what we'll go with. You've been a big help so far and I look forward to any pointers you can give us on our build. Thanks a million.

railshot:

I've found that the Birchwood Casey water/alcohol base Walnut stain works well on the beechwood stocks used on the CVA guns. The present Traditions guns are made out of the same wood by the same company that made the CVA imports.

This CVA 12 guage double is an old CVA kit that was put together by someone who tried using an oil base stain. It looked positively awful so I stripped the old finish completely and sanded the wood to remove all traces of it. The bare wood looked just like the blond beechwood your gun had before you applied your finish.

After several coats of the BC Walnut stain, letting each coat dry between coatings I applied Birchwood Casey Tru-Oil to finish it.



One thing to remember when you are prepping the stock for staining: Do not use any sandpaper finer than 220 grit.
Finer grits will not make the stock any smoother and it often won't remove the very fine wood fiber"fuzz" that can absorb stains and create patches of darker areas on the surface.

The courser 180 or 220 grit paper will cut the fuzz off leaving a uniform surface that will absorb the stain in a uniform manner.

Zonie said:

railshot:

I've found that the Birchwood Casey water/alcohol base Walnut stain works well on the beechwood stocks used on the CVA guns. The present Traditions guns are made out of the same wood by the same company that made the CVA imports.

This CVA 12 guage double is an old CVA kit that was put together by someone who tried using an oil base stain. It looked positively awful so I stripped the old finish completely and sanded the wood to remove all traces of it. The bare wood looked just like the blond beechwood your gun had before you applied your finish.

After several coats of the BC Walnut stain, letting each coat dry between coatings I applied Birchwood Casey Tru-Oil to finish it.

View attachment 1508

One thing to remember when you are prepping the stock for staining: Do not use any sandpaper finer than 220 grit.
Finer grits will not make the stock any smoother and it often won't remove the very fine wood fiber"fuzz" that can absorb stains and create patches of darker areas on the surface.

The courser 180 or 220 grit paper will cut the fuzz off leaving a uniform surface that will absorb the stain in a uniform manner.

Click to expand...

Good stuff Zonie, and that 12 gauge looks very nice with what you have done to it.
I am exploring another type of stain at this time as it is advertised as a "penetrating" stain, so I will see what happens on the Mountain... which I actually have in my hands.....
see my other post on that one for more details.

Zonie said:

railshot:

I've found that the Birchwood Casey water/alcohol base Walnut stain works well on the beechwood stocks used on the CVA guns. The present Traditions guns are made out of the same wood by the same company that made the CVA imports.

This CVA 12 guage double is an old CVA kit that was put together by someone who tried using an oil base stain. It looked positively awful so I stripped the old finish completely and sanded the wood to remove all traces of it. The bare wood looked just like the blond beechwood your gun had before you applied your finish.

After several coats of the BC Walnut stain, letting each coat dry between coatings I applied Birchwood Casey Tru-Oil to finish it.

View attachment 1508

One thing to remember when you are prepping the stock for staining: Do not use any sandpaper finer than 220 grit.
Finer grits will not make the stock any smoother and it often won't remove the very fine wood fiber"fuzz" that can absorb stains and create patches of darker areas on the surface.

The courser 180 or 220 grit paper will cut the fuzz off leaving a uniform surface that will absorb the stain in a uniform manner.

Click to expand...

Last year I re-did a CVA Missouri that had a factory finish that looked like dark chocolate syrup. After I scraped it off I noticed that the beech had several birth marks that were oval shaped and dull red in color. I'm sure that if I had used an oil based stain that they would have stuck out like sore thumbs. I decided to use a water based stain from Tandy designed for leather and then to faux stripe like the original Leman's.
I was surprised when I used the Tan leather dye that the finished color was very even and you couldn't even see the birth marks.

railshot said:

Interesting thoughts on leaving the spacer out..... I just may try that soon.
I do not like the way it looks with the brass spacer anywho, so eh, why not.
The spacer will make for a very nice template also.

This stock will be going to be replaced soon, and I like to play a bit, so thanks for the idea!

Click to expand...

When I first started the muzzleloading thing, I have a friend who had a bunch of originals. I was going to build my first. While fondling some of his, looking for fine details, I discovered several had wood repairs, spliced in and done so well he never noticed them, and he had shot them several times and cleaned them.
So matching stains can be done, but it may not be easy.

railshot said:

Good stuff Zonie, and that 12 gauge looks very nice with what you have done to it.
I am exploring another type of stain at this time as it is advertised as a "penetrating" stain, so I will see what happens...

Click to expand...

Just make absolutely sure your "penetrating" stain does NOT contain any petroleum thinner of ANY kind.
Also make sure it is not supposed to "stain in one coat" or do other magic tricks.

The best stains for beechwood use alcohol as the primary thinner/carrier.

For instance, one of the better stains is made by Behlen, called Master SOLAR-LUX. On the lable in big print it says
DANGER----POISON!
FLAMMABLE LIQUID AND VAPOR MAY BE FATAL OR CAUSE BLINDNESS
IF SWALLOWED. VAPOR HARMFUL. CAUSES EYE IRRITATION.

On the back it says
CONTAINS methyl alcohol, Diethylene Glycol Monoethyl Ether. CANNOT BE MADE NON-POISONOUS.

With warnings like that, it must be good (and, it is) !

This SOLAR-LUX is good and it comes in a lot of different colors but it is expensive. If I were to suggest a color, and you want to try some, try the American Walnut. The Maple's are IMO just a light brown.

The stains labeled Laurel Mountain are also good, alcohol based stains sold by places like Track of the Wolf.

Railshot, I like how your rifle turned out. I want to get one in near future to build but wish the little Crockett rifle came in flintlock.

Can they be converted to flint? I believe I could convert one with right size lock.

digger6581 said:

Railshot, I like how your rifle turned out. I want to get one in near future to build but wish the little Crockett rifle came in flintlock.

Can they be converted to flint? I believe I could convert one with right size lock.

Click to expand...

Thanks digger6581,
It is still my favorite one I have assembled from a kit.
I was wondering that same think myself, but have not investigated very far into changing it to a flint.