A Few Words About Smoothbores.

tenngun said:

There were smooth rifles sold on the frontier. The ‘Kentucky Rifles’ of the battle of New Orleans lost most of their rifles on the trip down and were shooting smooth bores. Men like Glass and Coulter lost rifles and had to make due for some time with fusils. In all of these cases the shooters would have been familiar with patching ball.it strains credibility to think none of these guys patched a ball for their smoothies. The men of the ‘Kentucky Rifles were running patched ball down their bores all their lives. So even if it was just the first shot ?
To be 100% hc, you can only prove wads, but.....

Click to expand...

I suggest the distinction here is cultural. French Canadians, and those First Nations doing business with French Canadian traders learned to shoot their fusils as le Loup suggests, having negligible contact with the rifle culture of Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia and other rifle making centers. In one of his videos on loading the fusil, Duelist1954 makes this argument, and I think it's pretty convincing.

Documentation? I have but one source; and that is the reminiscence of Osborne Russel in Journal of a Trapper. He recounts a battle between the trappers and the Blackfeet, where the combatants were so close together that Russel states that he could see the blanket wads coming from the muzzles of the Indians' fusils as they shot at the trappers.

Although by Russel's time, the British had taken over the Canadian fur trade and were making significant inroads in the American trade, the tradition of wadding the ball in a fusil by Native Americans was, I conclude, solidly established.

I think categorical statements must be nuanced according to culture, time, and place. Hugh Glass and John Coulter came from a rifle shooting culture. So it makes sense that they might load a fusil as they were used to loading a rifle. The Canadian coureur de bois Étienne Brûlé, on the other hand did not come from a rifle culture. So it makes sense that he may have loaded his fusil with wads.

More Documentation:
Round Ball & Wads or Wadding.

“ I slipped a boullet upon the shot and beate the paper into my gunne."

Voyages of Peter Esprit Radisson 1636-1710. Being an account of his travels and experiences among the North American Indians, from 1652 to 1684.

Foard’’s findings are supported by Rogers (1968) who found that various unusual and unauthorised methods of loading were used by soldiers to speed up the time between firings since the time of Charles I. Powder was poured into the end of the barrel, the musket ball dropped on top without wadding. The charge was then rammed home by banging the butt of the musket on the ground. This led to the range and penetration ability of the musket ball to suffer.

file:///C:/Users/Admin/Downloads/David%20Miller%20PhD.pdf
Keith.

Le Loup,
We get into trouble when we say "Never" or "Always".

It's late and bed -time, but in a little book called "Game pie" Col George Hanger (Was A British officer in the Revolution as our boys called it)
said when he was out shooting, he carried a few balls in his pocket "sewn up in greased cloth", that could be loaded pretty well as quick as a common musket. This was insurance against any kind of trouble that may occur whilst out 'sporting, or game-bird shooting.
I can look up the reference tomorrow sometime if you are interested in the book and such. The quote above is maybe paraphrased, as it is years since I read it.

All the best,
Richard.

Pukka Bundook said:

Le Loup,
We get into trouble when we say "Never" or "Always".

It's late and bed -time, but in a little book called "Game pie" Col George Hanger (Was A British officer in the Revolution as our boys called it)
said when he was out shooting, he carried a few balls in his pocket "sewn up in greased cloth", that could be loaded pretty well as quick as a common musket. This was insurance against any kind of trouble that may occur whilst out 'sporting, or game-bird shooting.
I can look up the reference tomorrow sometime if you are interested in the book and such. The quote above is maybe paraphrased, as it is years since I read it.

All the best,
Richard.

Click to expand...

Your comment does not seem to suggest he was carrying a smoothbore Richard, it says "could be loaded pretty well as quick as a common musket" suggesting that these balls were as easy to load in a rifle as it was to load a musket. Were all the balls in a greased bag? Or were they sewn individually in cloth? Interesting just the same, I would be interested in seeing more of this.
Thank you Richard.
Keith.

Pukka Bundook said:

Le Loup,
We get into trouble when we say "Never" or "Always".

It's late and bed -time, but in a little book called "Game pie" Col George Hanger (Was A British officer in the Revolution as our boys called it)
said when he was out shooting, he carried a few balls in his pocket "sewn up in greased cloth", that could be loaded pretty well as quick as a common musket. This was insurance against any kind of trouble that may occur whilst out 'sporting, or game-bird shooting.
I can look up the reference tomorrow sometime if you are interested in the book and such. The quote above is maybe paraphrased, as it is years since I read it.

All the best,
Richard.

Click to expand...

If he was "sporting or game bird shooting," then it seems ample evidence he was using a smoothbore, yes?

However, I also would like to see more of the quote.

Gus

If the quote came from "Colonel George Hanger to all sportsmen, and particularly to farmers and gamekeepers (London, 1814)," then the British Army was already using balls wrapped and stitched in grease cloth for the Baker Rifle and may be where he got the idea to use it in a Sporting Gun/Fowler.

Gus

Keith,
Yes, as far as I recall these sewn up balls were for his double shotgun. The old Colonel was an ascetic old lad, and was always ready to do battle, even when partridge shooting!

I'll do my best to get at finding the quote and source today Keith.

Gus,
You may be right, I'll see'f I can get a look today.
Yes, these balls sewn up in greased cloth were for his double shotgun.

All the best,
Richard.

Stumpkiller said:

Au contraire. Many militia and all (certainly most) military used paper cartridges. And since all able-bodies were expected to turn out for militia . . .

Click to expand...

SK, is that a original cartridge box and horn? If it is what's the history?

Hanger discussed balls with greased patches sewn around in _General George Hanger to all Sportsmen, Farmers, and Gamekeepers_, 1814, but for rifles.

"Now, gentlemen rifle shooters, I will teach you a most deadly and destructive method of using the rifle, in the face of an enemy. It is my own idea; at least, I never heard that any one has ever practised it, and I have know it and practrised it several years ago. A rifleman on service should have a small leathern bag fixed to his belt, with about thirty balls, tied up in greased patches. When he comes within one hundred and fifty yards of an enemy, IN BATTALION, which at times they may approach so near to the foe, when posted in a wood, and flanked, both on their right and left, by strong battalions; then they should load two balls more on the one already in the rifle; but then the rifle-gun must be made as heavy in the barrel as my own gun above spoken of; for the present guns are so much lighter, that, provided you put sufficient powder to carry three balls to a certain distance, to do execution, what, with the increase of powder, and the resistance of three balls, it would nearly knock a man down."

Spence

Leavings writing in 1846 while working for HBC, wrote to not have a prejudice a against smoothbores. As the ball placed in the fingers of kid gloves and trimmed to the top of the ball. It would then shoot as well as the best Lancaster or Moore rifles to sixty yards. Do you think afterfirering ten shots something else was substituted for the end of the glove?
Russel misquoted him in Firearms traps and tools of the mountain men, it was Spence that found the original quote when I posted this in May. Even so I think it demonstrated that patching a smooth bore ball was known before 1846.

Tell ya all what...... I really don't give a flip about someone shooting a wad and ball load in a smoothbore.... BUT.. for me, I am going to shoot my smooth rifle with a patched ball as I am confident my fore fathers did. Yes, I am sure.... why would they not do it that way. They likely took after their rifled gun counterparts on the frontier (VA etc.). I think they understood the need for accuracy and a wadded ball was not going to get it......

Every smooth bore gun I have ever shot and been able to compare performance between patched and wadded, shot far and away better with the patched ball then the wadded one and I have shot a bunch.

I am stayin with what I know shoots best..... Is it PC, well I'll let ya all fight it out. If some guy down under wants to claim that wadded ball is the only way based on some British publication let him have at it. I'll stick with American ingenuity.

Just the thoughts of an old guy.

A Brit working for HBC did write in 1846 that loading the balls in the tips of kid glove fingers trimmed off at the top of the ball would make a smooth bore shot tosixty yards as true as the best Lancaster or Moore rifle. I would think a substitute was found after using up one pair of gloves. Since this was written in ‘46it stands to reason it was done some years before.

Huntschool said:

I am stayin with what I know shoots best..... Is it PC, well I'll let ya all fight it out.

Click to expand...

Some of us are interested in what the old boys actually did, not what it seems logical they must have done. It may or may not have anything to do with what shoots best today.

Spence

George said:

Some of us are interested in what the old boys actually did, not what it seems logical they must have done. It may or may not have anything to do with what shoots best today.

Spence

Click to expand...

I really don't think it is what they might have done. There were too many smooth rifles out there that were in use. The folks that shot them were living among other folks that were shooting rifled guns and those shooting smooth were of that same culture.

I am certainly interested in "what the old boys did" but, if I understand this all correctly, to make a statement that patched ball loads in smooth rifles or smooth bore guns were not in use is ludicrous. I agree with Tenngun and Cruzatte's posts above. I find it hard to swallow that PA and VA (as well as other) built smooth rifles were being shot with an un patched ball with such a load on a regular basis....... JMHO

A single unequivocal description of patched round ball being used in a smoothbore will answer the question. If it was as commonly done as many people speculate, it shouldn't be hard to find just one.

Spence

Artificer said:

If he was "sporting or game bird shooting," then it seems ample evidence he was using a smoothbore, yes?

However, I also would like to see more of the quote.

Gus

Click to expand...

Yes Gus, sorry, brain too tired last night. Makes sense this morning
I hate getting old, but the alternative wasn't any better!
Keith.

Spence,

The quote you have above in post #29 isn't the one I was thinking of. I'll see if I can find it tonight.

George said:

A single unequivocal description of patched round ball being used in a smoothbore will answer the question. If it was as commonly done as many people speculate, it shouldn't be hard to find just one.

Spence

Click to expand...

Would not a ball being In cased compleatly in kidskin cut off level watch the top of the ball count as a patched round ball in a smoothie?

Huntschool said:

I really don't think it is what they might have done. There were too many smooth rifles out there that were in use. The folks that shot them were living among other folks that were shooting rifled guns and those shooting smooth were of that same culture.

I am certainly interested in "what the old boys did" but, if I understand this all correctly, to make a statement that patched ball loads in smooth rifles or smooth bore guns were not in use is ludicrous. I agree with Tenngun and Cruzatte's posts above. I find it hard to swallow that PA and VA (as well as other) built smooth rifles were being shot with an un patched ball with such a load on a regular basis....... JMHO

Click to expand...

Let's keep things in perspective here & not get personal! My post is based on original 18th century writings, but these writing are based on gun use in Europe. In the New World things may well have been different, but for those of us who are interested in authenticity, it behooves us to do the research & find out for ourselves. No one is saying you can't use a patched ball in a smoothbore if you want to Huntschool, this is NOT a personal attack or shaming of none traditional members. This is about enjoying the research & coming up with documentation.
Keith.

Le Loup said:

Documentation please Richard.
Thank you.
Keith.

Click to expand...

Keith, I don't recall where I have read that, and if I could, it still might not meet your standards for "documentation". And I am well aware, through this Forum, that the argument of "common sense" - "in a tight situation, running out of cloth patches, the shooter might resort to ones of leather, rather than firing with a bare, undersized ball." - well, that just doesn't meet the standards of historic accuracy many of us strive for.

So, I can only respond by quoting information which you, yourself, posted on 14 May, 2011, in "A Woodsrunner's Diary" : "The first rifles were loaded by driving the lead ball down the barrel with a mallet, no patch was used. In Germany, they started using leather and cloth to patch the ball."

Now, I grant you that you were writing of rifles, and their use in Germany. We all know that many of those German gunsmiths came here to ply their trade, bringing their gunsmithing skills, and their shooting knowledge (including the use of leather patches). I think we can all agree that the use of patched roundballs was not common in smoothbores, and less so, leather patches.

But these were resourceful people, who used whatever was at hand, particularly if the question was one of survival. I do not see how we can categorically rule out the use of patches, leather or cloth, in a smoothbore.

As for the semantics of "patch" or "wad" - the paper surrounding the ball performed, among others, the same function that a patch would, i.e. lessening the freespace for the ball to wobble down the bore ( or fall out). It matters little whether an 18th century musketman would have referred to it as "wad", "wadding" or "patch". ( Similar to the historic vs contemporary terms "steel"/frizzen, "cock"/hammer, "tricker"/trigger.)

We may never find the desired documentation for this, and countless other questions re our historic interests. Can we say that leather patches, or any patches, were period correct. Probably not, with any kind of certainty. I have learned on this Forum, that some of our smoothbore shooters use paper cartridges, some use various waddings (grass, tow etc.), and some use patches on the roundball - because they have found that it works, making for a safe, accurate load. These latter folks may have come to smoothbores from shooting rifles, and didn't know that patching wasn't "HC" (I never knew about wadding until I came here.)
Is it not possible that some shooters in the 18th century had the same experience?

As always, we have no "argument". I have read your "A Woodsrunner's Diary" many times, always impressed with your dedication and knowledge. I was delighted to discover that you are a member of the Forum (for longer than I have been). My only disagreement is with your emphatic use of the term "NOT".

One of these days, I hope to join the rank of smoothbore shooters. When I do so, it will be with the knowledge I have gained from folks like you, Spence, Tenngun, and so many others here on the Forum.

Richard/Grumpa