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Possible African Trade Flintlock with Bayonet?

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JFG

32 Cal
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Greetings all,

A client of mine has this old Flintlock and being a bit of an Anglophile, I offered to take a look. Despite my best attempts, Im still a bit confused, so perhaps the hive mind can help a bit...

Smoothbore, muzzle measures .66" wide. 53" overall length with a 37" barrel. Lock is stamped "W. Chance & Son" with an elephant under the pan (no castle with the elephant). On the topside of the barrel are the two Birmingham proofs. No other markings on the piece, even pulled the lock to see the backside.
brass buttplate and hardware & what appears to be an iron ramrod.
there is also a bayonet that came with it, perfectly fitted. Its not straight and obviously rather crudely made, but serviceable none the less.

now onto pictures..
 

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Hi. Welcome to the Forum. At first glance, it looks like an East India Pattern copy of the British 3rd Model Brown Bess musket. But I recall the 3rd Model had a 39" barrel and was about .75/77 caliber.
But there are members on this Forum that are well versed in British arms of the period and will likely chime in soon. Nice looking piece. Thanks for posting.
Rick
 
Thank you for the reply. I did check my copy of Red Coat and Brown Bess, and compared it to the India Pattern but there were just too many points varying from that pattern.
I anxiously await some other thoughts or info from the others.
 
This might have been a private commission for an officer's personal musket. The 0.66" diameter bore is generally the bore for an officer's personal firearm. The proof marks can be compared to known proof marks for a rough date of manufacture. The elephant could be stamped on the lock if the owner was going to India.
 
Might also ask over at the britishmilitaria forum on Tapatalk. Some real experts on British arms there.
I did post there as well, interestingly enough, there wasnt much reply there. Still kinda just sitting on the little bit of information I garnered on the web. Not a lot of info out there on these ol' smokepoles
 
I found that William Chance & Son manufactured guns in London from 1830 - 1860. They made quite a few of the Northwest trade guns for the American fur Co. from 1834 - 45. This piece may have been made for someone in India. I doubt an Englishman or British soldier would have requested a flint fusil this late . Percussion arms were being made by then..just my thoughts.
 
An interesting thread. You came with a question, and ended up sharing information with us. Thank you. It's always enjoyable to learn more about such things.
After viewing pictures such as you posted, I am always struck that even in an inexpensive Trade musket, guns made back then often show better quality of fitting, finishing, wood and material, and better architecture than our modern factory replicas. It makes one appreciate even more those talented people here on the Forum (and others, too) who have the ability and love for what they do, who recreate such beautiful reproductions of period firearms, accoutrements, and clothing. we are much in their debt.

Richard/Grumpa
 
Certainly looks like whoever made it, was making Bessies at the time. Looks likes lots of shared parts.
 
Interestingly (and kind of creepily enough) Im coming to the conclusion that its an African Slave Trade musket. The smaller calibre bore suggests a weapon that would have been used to pay for a female slave (as opposed to a male, that would have been worth the full .75 calibre ordnance steel barrel)
Im thinking that because of the bayonet, it make have been issued to a native levee at one of the Company of Merchants Trading to Africa outpost forts, the smaller calibre perhaps making up for a smaller stature.
It is incredible how a "poor" quality piece from back then still blows away my Charleville or Dublin Castle Bess repros.
 
Greetings all,

A client of mine has this old Flintlock and being a bit of an Anglophile, I offered to take a look. Despite my best attempts, Im still a bit confused, so perhaps the hive mind can help a bit...

Smoothbore, muzzle measures .66" wide. 53" overall length with a 37" barrel. Lock is stamped "W. Chance & Son" with an elephant under the pan (no castle with the elephant). On the topside of the barrel are the two Birmingham proofs. No other markings on the piece, even pulled the lock to see the backside.
brass buttplate and hardware & what appears to be an iron ramrod.
there is also a bayonet that came with it, perfectly fitted. Its not straight and obviously rather crudely made, but serviceable none the less.

now onto pictures..

Looks like a commercial Brown Bess Musket. These were shorter and lighter, almost like fusils; they omitted a wrist plate and used a 20 gauge bore. Several contracts made them, East India, Ketland, Mortimer etc.
 
Looks like a commercial Brown Bess Musket. These were shorter and lighter, almost like fusils; they omitted a wrist plate and used a 20 gauge bore. Several contracts made them, East India, Ketland, Mortimer etc.
Hi
Could you please point me in the direction of where your information came from. I’ve never seen a commercial Brown Bess in 20 gauge and as far as I know the East India company guns generally followed ordinance pattern.
 
So all in more or less standard 11-12 gauge bore. Not 20 gauge and there is a difference between East India company guns and India pattern which would be an ordinance pattern(see books by De Witt Bailey and David Harding
 
Last one is an officers fusil, not a Brown Bess. I was hoping you had some primary documentation, not just descriptions from vendors. I’ve still not seen any commercial Brown Bess’s in 20 gauge.
 
Last one is an officers fusil, not a Brown Bess. I was hoping you had some primary documentation, not just descriptions from vendors. I’ve still not seen any commercial Brown Bess’s in 20 gauge.

I’ve seen originals at gun shows in .62-.68 caliber.... The locks were marked Ketland but it is always possible that parts are cannibalized for commercial muskets.

There was a pretty deep market for commercial Brown Bess I North America and the other colonies.
 

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