1840s English SxS

I recently acquired a nice English 12 bore double gun (percussion). I know from the Birmingham proof marks that she is no newer than 1855, but my research into the maker and design places her most likely between 1840 and 1848. Given her age she is in amazing condition. I have antiques that are decades newer but not as nice.

She appears to be in shooting condition, but has three issues that are beyond my skills and tools.

• there are minor dents at both muzzles
• the thickness of both barrels should be measured throughout
• the inside of the barrels, especially at the breach, should be inspected - my little lamp only works to a point

When new, this was a mid-priced gun. She does have some collector's value but not so much that you would not take her out on rare occasions for some fun with light loads. Her value is diminished by an old repair to the stock and the absence of the original case - but enhanced by the absence of any crude attempts at refurbishing in the past. The maker was William Ellis - a Birmingham gunmaker with a shop in St James Street, London. He died in 1848 - a few years before the heyday of the English sporting gun. He made fine guns and they come up for sale occasionally, but go for relatively modest amounts.

So - I am looking for an appropriately skilled and tooled gunsmith sympathetic to guns of history, understanding muzzleloaders and able to tell his Plain Twist from his Best Damascus.

Any recommendations? I am based in California but will ship this gun anywhere in the country.

Get a small penlight, and drop it down the barrels pointing out. You'll be able to see almost all the bore. If you can shine a focused light down the barrels, you may be able to see the faces of the breech plugs.
With a tight fitting patch, you will be able to feel the bores end to end, detect any loose spots. Compare bore diameter with OD; no need to have the barrel wall thickness measured.
Make sure the nipple threads are good. A blown nipple is serious.
Minor dents at the muzzles will be easy to iron out. The barrels will be quite soft.
Detach the barrels from the stock. The underside of the barrels will probably show the best figure. You'll be able to tell if the barrels are plain twist, two or three stripe Damascus, etc. If the barrels are sound, the exact type of weld won't affect shootability.

Thanks for the input. I appreciate it.

I have already done all I can with a penlight and with a focus light down both barrels. That suggests everything is good. I am looking for a better way to identify any pitting my lights may not identify.

Thanks for the patch suggestion - I'll try that.

The nipples will be removed and the threads inspected - that is part of my standard operating procedure.

I was being a little tongue-in-cheek in my reference to the type of Damascus barrel construction - I know exactly what I have. My point (and I apologize for not being more direct) is that I would like to find a gunsmith familiar with old barrels.

The barrels seal nicely and chime like a bell.

This is the oldest original I have in (hopefully) shooting condition, and considerable caution feels appropriate.

I'll post updates as I progress and share a photo or two after the basic clean up.

The first double gun I acquired was a Belgian, purchased at a farm auction for $4.50. No locks. Made a pair of locks, test fired it, and used it. The bores were dark, but not heavily pitted. That was back in the '60s.
In the early 70s, I acquired my first good double, a 14ga Birmingham proofed gun. Used to carry a grain of wheat bulb on fine wires to inspect bores. When I checked this one before buying it, the bores and breechplug faces were shiny. I still have that one. It is a great shooter.
Bore condition can be unpredictable. Bought a 12 bore British single, nice external shape. Bore was horrible. Reamed it to .750, there were still serious pits. Sleeved the bore to make that one into a shooter.

I'm afraid I can't help you with the name of a good gunsmith that has experience with Damascus barrels.

Although the curator at a museum that has guns might be one source, they are usually more knowledgeable of the authenticity of the barrels and know very little about the material condition that would make the gun safe to shoot.

Most modern gunsmiths only knowledge of Damascus barrels is hearsay that has been handed down from the early 1900's when there were many failures because people were loading the newly invented smokeless powders in them. (Even good Damascus barrels seemed to have a distinct dislike for smokeless powders.)
They will almost always say, "DON"T SHOOT IT!!! It will blow up!" :shocked2:

I guess if the gun was mine I would take it to a company that specializes in inspecting various metals using non destructive methods like Florescent Penetrant Inspection and X-Ray's.

I would request that they inspect the barrel to see if it had any cracks in it.

I would also expect them to ask me to sign paperwork that would not hold them libel if the barrel exploded if it was shot.

Although I would be interested in knowing if their was any voids in the material I would also tell them that because of the way the barrel was made the presence of non-metallic inclusions should be expected.

If they don't find any cracks in the barrels, I would feel fairly safe in shooting the gun although I would only use light loads in it.

The default answer is Bobby Hoyt. I don't know if he does shotguns but he does install barrel liners, breech, bore and rifle... rifle bores.
He's in Pa....
His contact info is plastered all over the forums. You'll have to call him or write a letter. He does not do computers.

Truthfully....
No modern gunsmith is going to take the liability. Most BP gunsmiths will not either.

It's like taking a 1914 Model T to the local Midas and asking for a 10 point safety check. No living human is going to..."sign off" on it.

It comes down to use at your own risk.

The thing could be mint...like new, but these days who's going to take that chance?

That sums things up very nicely.
I might choose to shoot an original, and feel comfortable doing so, but I cannot recommend that someone else shoot it. It is an individual decision.
With a modern gun, like my Navy Arms/Pietta double, one can expect that it is a shooter.
Speaking of mint... I have a Cogswell & Harrison ml single that is mint. Haven't shot it, but I would have no hesitation shooting it, from the standpoint of safety. But that is my decision.

Thank you everyone - all good input.