I will grant you that they do not have the finer fit and finish of Pedersoli products but to classify them all as junk is incorrect. Veteran and Loyalist Arms, to mention only two, have their pick of the better makers and do their own fitting and lock tempering should it be required. The touch hole issue is purely a matter of overcoming import/export fees and paperwork. Yes, there have been problems, but some of the Indian makers have been in business for over a century and their products shouldn't be lumped together with the rest.
-
This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.
Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades -
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
Low cost Brown Bess Short Land Rifle?
- Thread starter Mojave
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
Ike Godsey
45 Cal.
Wes/Tex said:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Ike :hatsoff:
I'll speak up again on the topic of India made firearms.
I participated in the November Encampment and Woods Walk at Fort de Chartres. A total of 26 teams spent about an hour on the walk firing at what seemed like a lot of targets. We only had time for a brief wipe with tow and toggle to keep fouling at bay and minimal time to brush pans keep flints sharp.
My team used two Loyalist Arms Long Land Pattern muskets, one unknown origin French military musket, one custom Early English rifle and one Pedersoli Short Land Pattern musket. We probably fired close to 30 live rounds each. The Muskets fired a charge of 90 grains of powder pushing a paper wrapped 0.715 ball and when the fouling got too bad, a paper wrapped 0.690 ball. The gun with the most failures to fire was the Pedersoli Bess.
Our accuracy was good enough for us to place 7th. So our India made muskets performed well. Of course credit must be given to our rifle shooter for having a rifle capable of making the long range shots.
Bottom line is: Don't just dismiss the better quality guns that can come from the gun makers such as Loyalist Arms and Veteran Arms.
Another time I will have to talk about some observations about paper cartridges.
I participated in the November Encampment and Woods Walk at Fort de Chartres. A total of 26 teams spent about an hour on the walk firing at what seemed like a lot of targets. We only had time for a brief wipe with tow and toggle to keep fouling at bay and minimal time to brush pans keep flints sharp.
My team used two Loyalist Arms Long Land Pattern muskets, one unknown origin French military musket, one custom Early English rifle and one Pedersoli Short Land Pattern musket. We probably fired close to 30 live rounds each. The Muskets fired a charge of 90 grains of powder pushing a paper wrapped 0.715 ball and when the fouling got too bad, a paper wrapped 0.690 ball. The gun with the most failures to fire was the Pedersoli Bess.
Our accuracy was good enough for us to place 7th. So our India made muskets performed well. Of course credit must be given to our rifle shooter for having a rifle capable of making the long range shots.
Bottom line is: Don't just dismiss the better quality guns that can come from the gun makers such as Loyalist Arms and Veteran Arms.
Another time I will have to talk about some observations about paper cartridges.
Ike Godsey
45 Cal.
Thank you for your input!
I too bought a LLP from Loyalist Arms, here are some pics:
Good working lock, no touch hole (import requirements) hole drilled went to a official proofe house - it passed the test with NO problem and is ready to life fire.
Ike
I too bought a LLP from Loyalist Arms, here are some pics:
Good working lock, no touch hole (import requirements) hole drilled went to a official proofe house - it passed the test with NO problem and is ready to life fire.
Ike
Ike, your musket is very much like mine. My musket is dated 1728 Dublin Castle.
Greg Wesley
32 Cal.
- Joined
- May 12, 2015
- Messages
- 62
- Reaction score
- 11
I will reiterate the point of finding a reenacting group first. They will tell what to get. Also, most groups will have that someone that works on everybody's muskets when problem occurs and they will steer you in the right direction. Plus they will know people that are getting out/retiring from the hobby and willing to sell. That's how I got my Coach Harness Bess.
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2005
- Messages
- 6,748
- Reaction score
- 4,904
There are members on this forum in England and in Germany who own Loyalist Arms muskets, AND have by law sent the barrels to their respective proofing houses, and all passed. (BTW the English and German proof houses have higher standards than the Italian proof house where Pedersoli sends its barrels.)
Not quite so, LD. All fourteen signature nations to the CIP, including UK and Germany, require the MANUFACTURERS to submit their products to proof testing BEFORE they can be sold on the open market - ie - to a distributor and then to the store then to the person.
You might buy an original gun in order to shoot it, but the onus is on YOU to ensure that it is safe to shoot, and you might, therefore submit it for proof. In any event, if you sell it on, and the new owner intendeds to shoot it, then YOU must have it proofed, since, in law, it is a criminal offence under the Gun Proof Acts [and the CIP rules, which are law in each signature nation] to sell an unproofed gun of any kind that is intended for shooting live ammunition.
If I bought a custom rifle in the USA with the intention of shooting it here in UK, so long as I did not sell it, then it does not need proof. If I wanted to sell it, then it needs proofing.
tac
Not quite so, LD. All fourteen signature nations to the CIP, including UK and Germany, require the MANUFACTURERS to submit their products to proof testing BEFORE they can be sold on the open market - ie - to a distributor and then to the store then to the person.
You might buy an original gun in order to shoot it, but the onus is on YOU to ensure that it is safe to shoot, and you might, therefore submit it for proof. In any event, if you sell it on, and the new owner intendeds to shoot it, then YOU must have it proofed, since, in law, it is a criminal offence under the Gun Proof Acts [and the CIP rules, which are law in each signature nation] to sell an unproofed gun of any kind that is intended for shooting live ammunition.
If I bought a custom rifle in the USA with the intention of shooting it here in UK, so long as I did not sell it, then it does not need proof. If I wanted to sell it, then it needs proofing.
tac
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2005
- Messages
- 6,748
- Reaction score
- 4,904
Wow!!! It's about a gazillion years since I heard of that company!!!! All my BP accoutrements came from that little gun-store in Sussex, now just a memory...
tac
tac
Ike Godsey
45 Cal.
Whalemeat1986 said:
Please excuse me for asking, bt since I have never heared this, WHAT is it? How and where can I look to it?
Thank you!!
Ike
EDIT:
this is the only thing I could find.
Ike Godsey
45 Cal.
tac said:
Hmm.... Germany is a bit different.
You're right, you do not need to proof it. But there are several other aspects to look at.
Here in Germany, the ONLY way to life fire a gun is on a official range. The law says that all guns that will be fired at a official shooting range MUST have an offical proof.
I brought in two LLPs fom CAN. No touch holes drilled do to import restrictions.
I inspected them here, drilled the touch holes and send them to the proof house.
They did their proofing job and all muskets did well and passed the test.
YES, if the gun is to be sold here in a shop (commercial sales) the gun MUST be proofed before.
Ike
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2005
- Messages
- 6,748
- Reaction score
- 4,904
Coach Harness Ltd was a small-scale gun dealer based in Sussex - East Anglia - operating in the late fifties to early eighties. They dealt with the likes of ASM and other aspiring Italian makers, but had their own range of very nicely-made and now much sought-after replications of various models of the so-called Brown Bess musket. They cost around the same as the real thing at the time.
They have been gone for about thirty years....
tac
They have been gone for about thirty years....
tac
NC Highlander
40 Cal.
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2015
- Messages
- 109
- Reaction score
- 0
Loyalist Dave said:
Thank you! I heartily agree about this point. I saved money on buying a Loyalist because I didn't want to spend $1000 on a Pedersoli. I get that some people can find deals on guns all the time, but I don't have that kind of horseshoe luck. I've owned my Loyalist SLP for a year and a half now, maybe more, and I still haven't found that unicorn Pedersoli that costs the same price as an Indian gun. They're all still around 900 bucks even used.
And finding someone that's getting out of the hobby can be even harder because one: they don't always appear with a giant sign at events; two: I don't carry 900 bucks with me everywhere and nor will most people accept electronic payment.
Greg Wesley
32 Cal.
- Joined
- May 12, 2015
- Messages
- 62
- Reaction score
- 11
Just pure luck, right place, right time for the Coach Harness. Already been offered a nice chunk of change for it. At first I didn't know what it was until I did some research. Got a short sword and an original East India bayonet with it. The barrel has a nice brown patina to it.
Ike Godsey
45 Cal.
Whalemeat1986 said:
hotoSmile: hotoSmile: hotoSmile:Similar threads
- Locked
