How Many Shots to Group

The Army used to back in the 1960's (not sure about nowadays) and the Marine Corps still does issue "Data Books" when going on Annual Rifle Range Details.

One of the great things about these books is for each range and course of fire, there are small targets on which the shooter plots where he believes the shot went, right after the shooter fires and before his target is scored. Then when his target is scored and a spotter shows where the shooter hit, that is also recorded on a larger bullseye with a dot and a number representing both where the shot went and what number the shot was in the string.

What this plotting of where the shooter thinks the round went off when the shooter last saw the sights when the rifle went off does is begin to teach the shooter to be able to "call his/her shots." This is an important skill because then the shooter can distinguish any poor or bad shot as either his/her fault or less likely, if it is the fault of the firearm, AND it is a useful tool to sight in a rifle.

If a shooter can't call his/her shots before the target is scored, it doesn't matter how many rounds are fired in a group, because the shooter will never know when it was his/her fault and when the rifle threw a shot or did not shoot the tightest group.

Once a shooter learns to call their shots, 3 shot groups will tell one not only how to adjust sights, but also give a very good idea of HUNTING accuracy because it is only the first round that counts in hunting.

Now of course if one is firing 5 or 10 round matches, then shooting that many rounds into a group is necessary to see how the rifle/gun performs throughout the match.

Gus

I realize most ML rifles have fixed sights, but for those that have rear sights adjustable for windage, here is something else I learned from modern rifle competition.

Once you have a load that shoots the best group AND you have the group properly centered on the target, then it is a good idea to shoot at least one round left and right for at least the first two or three "clicks" of windage with the adjustable rear sight.

There is no way each click will move your shots exactly the same as other clicks, so shooting at each click will tell you how far the group actually moves per click.

This is useful information for hunting or target shooting when the wind comes up and you can therefore "dial in" the right number of clicks to compensate for windage drift of the shots. Of course you have to be at least somewhat good at estimating wind speed for this to work the best, but a data book will also help you with that as will wind flags on a target range.

Gus

Another bit of food for thought. I RSO at a public range quite often. I've especially noticed on the pistol range that average shooters will start out with 2 or three shots that make a small group and then things start to spread out. It seems they either fatigue, lose concentration, or begin to react to recoil and noise. I've also experienced some of the same when shooting.

Another is many shooters will mention fatigue after a longer shooting session. It can be either muscle or eye fatigue.

We have several really good shooters who have competed a lot and in one case an NRA master who don't make those mistakes, but also know when and how to take a break.

I was in the Army in the 60s but don't recall the "books" you mention; but that, of course, means nothing...memory, you know.

The 3-shot group is mainly for my smoothbore. Yes, I've fired many 5 and 10 shot groups with it but 3-shots tell me what I need to know for forays into the bush. I like, generally, 5-shot groups with rifles, especially small calibers. I don't compete and don't require 1" 50 yard groups; although I have fired my share of those with 5 shots. All I need is to hit a soccer ball at maybe 100 yards at most. This will take deer. Around 4" is about the best I usually do for 5 shots at 100 yds; more than enough accuracy for my use. With rifles I prefer to start with 3 shots and then go to 5 or more if I'm satisfied with the 3. The replies are helpful and appreciated.

Excellent tip to rest between shooting 3 shot groups, so as not to let fatigue interfere with your concentration!

We had a Team Doctor on the US International Muzzle Loading Team who told us about the effects of shooting on the human body. Now I am no Doctor, but the gist of it was that with so much water/fluid in the human body, shooting causes hydraulic pressure in the body for that fatigue. Not exactly sure about that, but the physical effects and fatigue are real.

Gus

I was gifted one such Army Data book with the written in dates of 1964 when the original Army Veteran owner had used it on the range. He thought I might enjoy it and I sure do. It is very similar to the Data Books we Marines used in 1971 when I came on Active Duty.

Gus

That brings me back. I'd forgotten all about those.

It seems like my shooting gets the best after 20 shots or so, that's the point where I tend to have mind and body dialed in the best. I imagine that would improve if I was able to shoot a little more often. I tend to go with about ten shots on my first target then try three shot groups when I achieve peak performance later in the session. Of course last time I went (last weekend) my shooting got its best about the time my fingers started getting cold and stiff I was just shooting offhand, need to check things on a rest when I come up with a portable table I can carry into my walk in shooting area.

Formerly only shot CFs and had a 19 lb bench rifle in .22/250 w/ a 18X Unertl 'scope and it taught me a few things one of which was that the more shots in a group, the more chance for human error.

So....what's being checked....the rifle and its loads or the skill of the shooter?

Awhile back had to remove the sights on my super accurate.45 squirrel rifle and went to 25 yds, got into the sitting position and shot at the 1-1/2" bull and adjusted the sights until 2 consecutive shots were well into the bull....then went hunting.

When I was sighting in rifles for my club's deer hunting clinic and the hunters were doing the shooting, 2 close shots were mandatory for moving the sights. Also when 2 shots were in the bull, that was the beginning of a 5 shot group and I observed many times that the 4th and 5th shots weren't as close as the first 3 shots. Mental attitude takes its toll.....Fred

When you are laying repetitive shots with a set-artillery piece that is the case.

When you are seeing which load gives the best results in hunting conditions or offhand positions - different story. The advantage may be with a faster load that "gets away" before the whimmies drift you off target.

I set everything securely on a table, rest and bags to regulate the sights and thereafter I practice as I will be shooting afield. Maybe sitting and resting on my knees, maybe standing.

That's for my benefit - not the rifles.

I know use nothing LESS than 10-shots if/when shooting for groups or whilst during load development AND I'll record every group.

You csn quote me on this:

"Given that 10-shots are a group and 5-shots may be a favorable trend ... know that just one good 3-shot group can make you an instant internet superstar!"

What ever blows your skirt up. 2 is a pair and 3 or more is a group. I use 5 shots 5x (not always the same day) to tell me what is happening w load and sights.

My $0.02

Flint62Smoothie said:

I know use nothing LESS than 10-shots if/when shooting for groups or whilst during load development AND I'll record every group.

You csn quote me on this:

"Given that 10-shots are a group and 5-shots may be a favorable trend ... know that just one good 3-shot group can make you an instant internet superstar!"

Click to expand...

If one is going to shoot a 10 shot string in a match (or more as in some International ML competition), I definitely concur one should shoot 10 shot groups to:

1. Determine the best load
2. Determine how one needs to wipe the bore and/or clean the barrel during the string, to keep the barrel shooting the same from shot to shot.
3. Learn how much wind or light changes affect the group during the string. Since it takes at least some time to load and fire that many rounds, changing external conditions will also be a factor in accuracy on that day.

Gus

I tire out very, very quickly, now, and usually my best groups are the first couple of targets. Occasionally, I do better after putting some rounds down range but this is unusual.

Same here

Usually five .

Last time at the range the .50 was along for the ride. I ended up shooting at 100 yard and fired 5 shot groups. Four weren't bad - for me - at all but #5 was a mild flier. Still, all shots could fit on a dessert plate and poi was dead on at 100. At 50 yards the groups were about 3+ inches high. This gives me a point blank range of something over 100. That's about the max I'd shoot, anyway. At 50 I mostly fired 3 shots.

Lots of people will say "3 shots is all you are likely to get when hunting" and that may be true but is a red herring, it has nothing to do with why we are shooting groups. I don't expect to fire more than one shot at a game animal but one shot doesn't tell me much about what I can expect from my rifle and load.
We fire multiple shots to determine what sort of spread we can expect. If I knew for certain that my rifle and load were capable of putting every shot through the same hole then I'd only need to fire one shot to check or adjust my sights.
Fire five three shot groups or 3 five shot groups and the three shot groups will always average smaller than the 5 shot groups which in turn will average smaller than a 10 shot group. It has nothing to do with heating the barrel or fatiguing the shooter, at least not necessarily so. It is just a simple fact that a rifle is going to throw an occasional shot wider than average and the more shots you fire into a group the better chance that group will include one wide shot. While I like to brag about a tight group it is actually that one wide shot I'm looking for because that just might be the one in the chamber when I need it to count.
Noted rifleman Townsend Whelen use to advocate what he called the 80% group. He'd fire five but only measure the "best 4", discounting the "flyer". Personally, while I do all I can to get the BEST out of my rifle It is actually the WORST that I'm looking for because the worst is the best I can absolutely depend upon. The more shots you fire on paper the better you know the limitations of your rifle and yourself.