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Recommended Tap and Die set?

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There's not that many different sizes on a muzzleloader, so you could buy everything "a la carte"...and don't forget the proper drills.

Once you brake a tap or drill you'll have to buy a replacement individually anyway....

I'm not a gun builder so take it with some salt.
 
What are you planning to build? Percussion lock or flint lock?

I would doubt that you want to drill and tap the breech plug and barrel.

Sets are going to have more taps and dies than you need.

You will need an 8/32 or 10/32 tap and a tap handle for the lockplate bolts. I assume you will buy an assembled lock. More than likely you will get threaded lock bolts, so there may be no need for the dies. The taps and tap handle may be all that's needed.

Tell us what you are going to build.
 
That's it, though you may wish to buy a specialty tap to correspond with a vent liner's threads. Occasionally, if you are building a fairly narrow build, you may bottom out the threads on a lock bolt, and need to thread it more. In that case you'll need a die to turn them.

I like to use new taps for every hole, even though I probably don't need to. But since there are only 3 holes that need to be tapped, another $2 per hole isn't that much in the scheme of things. Busted one in a lock plate one time, and it was a bugger to work around the busted end. I would have been happier to pay the $2 for the new tap. The individual taps from the hardware store usually also come with the correct sized drill bit for them too. Sharp new bits drill better than old dull ones.

The important thing with taps & dies is to use a heavy cutting oil on them, turn them slowly, and back them out frequently to clean out the chips when the torque starts to feel like you may be stressing the tap a bit much. You don't want to bust one if you can help it.
 
Look at the McMaster-Carr web site. You can get individual taps/dies or sets. They have a lot to choose from.
 
Building a flintlock based on donated parts and a Durs Egg flintlock from Track. The breech plug is threaded but the barrel is not. Lock plate does not seem to have threaded holes for side plate. Will install a touch hole liner as well.

It it a mix between kit and scratch build. I figure it will take me a while and look pretty ugly but it will be a learning experience.
 
I use an #8-32 tang screw and rear lock bolt and a #6-32 front lock bolt. So only 2 tap sizes are needed plus body and tap drills for both sizes.

Dies are used infrequently so I bought 2 sizes for the above bolts and screws and just use the dies to lengthen the threaded lengths if req'd. If you build Hawkens then a die is req'd to thread the front boss on the trigger guard....they're usually 1/4-20 threads. I bought mine from Menards and they cost about $2.50 apiece.

Use some kind of oil when tapping or threading....Fred
 
The individual taps from the hardware store usually also come with the correct sized drill bit for them too.

Not in my neck of the woods.....but that sure would be convenient .

Use some kind of oil when tapping or threading....Fred
Excellent advice... :thumbsup: along with advancing no more than a 1/4 turn without backing up and clearing chips.....

You'll also need a bottoming tap for the barrel and any other blind holes ....unless you make them...
 
You need to measure your breech plug to determine the tap you need. Rest assured that it won't be in any set and you will need two. One to cut the threads and a bottoming tap to cut threads to the bottom of the drilled hole so the breech plug can be aligned and mated to the barrel. No gaps should exist between the breech face and the breech seat at the bottom of the barrel. A correct drill bit is needed to drill the hole for threads to be tapped.

A drill and tap will be required for the touch hole. The Chamber's White Lightening liner requires a drill and tap not found in sets.

Get a gun building book, such as "The Gunsmith of Greenville County" by Peter Alexander or the one offered through Dixon's Muzzleloading. Maybe a gun making video would also help. Information at hand can make the learning process much easier and the end result more refined.
 
Depending on what you are going to tap & thread you "MAY" need 8 or 10 different taps & dies. Not all lock screw internals are standard (i.e. 5-40, 6-40). Look here for a good price . Also buy yourself a "Machinist Handbook" buy an older one and save yourself some money :v . Practice tapping & threading so you don't cry later when you break a tap AND BUY TAPPING FLUID do not use just any oil there IS a difference!
 
Buy a set of standard sizes, like Sears Craftsman set. You will need the tap handles and dies stock.

As for weird sizes you will need to buy them on the internet. 6-48 is a very common modern guns. I keep lots of screws and taps on hand of that size. I tend to substitute the 6-48 when it makes sense. Like when a plan calls for a 5-40 to attach a trigger guard. I avoid using obscure sizes when practical.
 
Leam,

First, please understand I don’t know what your experience level is with using taps and dies. When I began learning these things in 1973, I knew almost nothing about them. So if information I give is something you already know, please understand. Some folks on the forum will know only some of this information or none at all.

flehto said:
I use an #8-32 tang screw and rear lock bolt and a #6-32 front lock bolt. So only 2 tap sizes are needed plus body and tap drills for both sizes.
Fred

Leam, in case you did not know, the reason Fred suggested using the #6-32 for the front lock bolt is that this is a smaller diameter screw that will be easier to fit between the bottom of the barrel and top of the ramrod hole in the stock. You can get lock bolts for both size screws that have the same size heads, so they look better outside the side plate, or you can shape the larger head of the #8-32 screw to match the smaller head of the #6-32. However, some folks don’t worry about the size of heads matching each other. This is up to you, the builder. HOWEVER, if your lock plate is already drilled and tapped for the side plate screws/bolts, then you have to use the size screws that will fit those holes.

BTW, flehto/Fred is a real machinist, so if I inadvertently type something that is wrong, I hope he will correct me. I was trained in some machining to do gun work, but am not a fully qualified machinist like Fred.

From bad experiences, I have learned NOT to trust some of the drill bits that come with taps when you find a combination drill bit and tap sold together in one package in hardware stores. Many times the drill bit provided makes the hole too large to give enough percentage of threads for gun work. The reason for this is “Harry Homeowner” often/usually has no experience drilling and tapping holes, so they provide a drill bit that will only give a 50 ”“ 60 percent amount of threads in the hole, because it is much easier to tap the hole with the larger size drill bit and there is much less of a chance Harry Homeowner will break the tap when threading the hole, because he doesn’t use oil or tries to force the tap without backing it off enough during the tapping process.

For most tapped holes for use in gun work, I prefer a 75 percent thread size in the hole. I am not sure what percentage of threads is recommended for a flash hole liner, though. It may be an 85 percent thread, but I am not sure. Fortunately the folks who sell the flash hole liners usually also sell the correct size drill bit for their flash hole liners.

On the subject of percentage of thread sizes in a hole, I copied this from “MACHINIST’S Practical Guide” from Morse cutting tools. This is a pocket size book my best friend in life (who was a real machinist) gave me back in 1974. I have almost worn the book out since then, primarily looking up tap and drill sizes and fractional conversion to decimal sizes when I often needed that information:

“Tap drill sizes shown are for holes as deep as the diameter of the tap. A 53 percent thread will break the bolt (screw) before it will strip ”“ in most cases. For this size stock (material thickness) use a 75 to 80 percent thread tap drill.
For VERY THIN stock use 100 percent thread tap drill.
A 100 percent thread is only 5 percent stronger than a 75 percent thread, but it requires three times the power to tap.“

When flehto/Fred is talking about “body” drill bits, I am pretty sure he means a drill bit that will drill a hole large enough for the body or shank of the screw/bolt to easily pass through, such as the hole in a side plate for the side plate bolts/screws. This is also known as a clearance drill. A drill bit needs to drill a hole two or three thousandths (or slightly) larger than the body/shank of the screw/bolt to easily pass through the hole. Now, here’s a catch, though. Sometimes you run into screws/bolts that have a body/shank diameter that is a little bit larger than normal for the threads. So it is really a good idea to double check the diameter of the body/shank with a good Dial or Digital Caliper to ensure the drill bit will drill a big enough hole for the bolt/screw to easily pass through.

Something you need to know about “Number Size” drill bits is that the diameter of the drill bit and hole gets SMALLER as the number size goes up. IOW, a Number “1” size drill bit makes a hole .228 inch in size and a Number “80” makes a hole .0135 inch in size.

OK, if I have not yet bored you to tears, GOOD NEWS. Now that you have the above information, it is time for some recommended drill sizes for the two screw sizes.
#6-32
Use Number Size “36” Drill Bit for a hole you are going to tap/thread.
Use Number Size “28” Drill Bit for the minimum size hole you need the body/shank of the screw/bolt to pass through, as in going through the Side Plate.
#8-32
Use Number Size “30” Drill Bit for a hole you are going to tap/thread.
Use Number Size “19” Drill Bit for the minimum size hole you need the body/shank of the screw/bolt to pass through, as in going through the Side Plate.

In case you would like to get a copy of “MACHINIST’S Practical Guide” for yourself, here is a link: http://www.penntoolco.com/morse-pocket-size-machinist-guides/

Oh, if I have not put you to sleep, there is more info coming in my next post.

Gus
 
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" I have learned NOT to trust some of the drill bits that come with taps when you find a combination drill bit and tap sold together in one package in hardware stores."

Drill bits are not sizing tools, reamers are.

All drill bits will cut oversized if you do not make a pilot hole. How much oversize depneds on th luck and the quality of the bit. IF you make a pilot, that it near the final size your final bit will cut a hole that is of the true correct size.

Correlary to the above, if you want a bit to cut oversized grind one cutting edge a little longer and don't use a pilot hole.

The cheap Chinese set of all fractional, number and letter bits are pretty poor quality, make a pilot hole.
 
Good point and I should have mentioned that in my post above. I usually use a drill bit to drill a pilot hole that is about 2/3's to 3/4's of the diameter of the tap hole size. Sometimes with tougher material, I get closer to the actual size of the hole I want before tapping, by using ever larger drill bits to get close to the tap hole size.

Gus
 
Leam,

While I do like many of the Craftsman Brand Tools from Sears, there is one thing to think about when buying a Tap and Die set from them, of which you may not be aware. They offer both hexagonal shaped dies in their kits and sometimes offer round dies in their kits.

I personally prefer the round dies, both because I am "old school" and most dies were that way when I began, but also because many dies for specialty gunsmith screws come in round size dies only. So if you buy a kit with hexagonal dies, you may or are going to have to buy round dies and a new die holder when/if you need to work on specialty screws like 6-48 threads. If you buy a kit with round dies, you are good to go with the dies for gunsmith specialty threads.

Gus
 
Don't bother with buying a "tap and die set".

Do as the others have suggested and buy individual taps and the tap drills sized for them**.

You will probably never need to use a die to form external threads. The only time I've found them useful is if I have a screw which doesn't have enough threads on the shank. I then use a die of the same thread size to "chase" the threads further down the shank.

Do not forget to buy Thread Cutting Oil.

This special oil has sulfur and some other things in it and it is needed to lubricate the tap when you are cutting the new threads.
As you will only be using a few drops each time you lubricate the hole and tap, a pint of this oil will last you a lifetime.

Regular oil of any other kind will NOT work for this task and if you try using regular oil you will end up breaking the tap.

Speaking of breaking taps, never try to force a tap to turn if it shows any increase in resistance to being turned.

To use a tap, after you drill the correctly sized hole, oil it and the tap threads with thread cutting oil.

Put the tap into a tap driver and keeping the tap as perpinducular as possible to the surface apply a light pressure as you turn the tap into the material.
Do not turn it in over 3 full turns.

After 2 to 3 full turns, unscrew the tap 1/2 turn.
Then, apply some more thread cutting oil and screw the tap in another 2 to 3 full turns. Then back the tap back out 1/2 turn, add oil and continue threading the hole using this same 2 to 3 turns in and 1/2 turn back out method.


Remember, taps are one of the hardest and most brittle tools you will ever use.
The slightest sideways pressure can cause them to break so be gentle.

When the full size threads on the tap are completely thru the metal, your finished.

Threading blind holes with a bottom requires special taps that do not have the tapered lead in.
Because of this, don't worry about them until you need them.

** The number drills don't come in most drill sets but a well equipped hardware store like Ace often has them locked up in a special case. Just ask for them.

Also, these number drills are often poorly marked. At least I have problems reading the sizes marked on them.

Because of this and the need to make absolutly sure you have the correct one, I strongly suggest that you buy a dial caliper so you can measure each drill to the nearest .001 before you use it.

The inexpensive digital calipers work well but the batteries don't last long. A dial caliper (which measures outside, inside and depth dimensions to an accuracy of .001 inch) will never leave you stranded with a dead battery and no readout on the display.

As a side note, I always refer to a thread/drill chart and my dial caliper to verify I have the right sized drill before I start drilling.
 
Thanks Zonie. More good tips. Here's another one. When tapping and threading holes that are on the far side of the stock, such as trigger plates and lock plates, leave them clamped in place and tap them THROUGH the shallower wood to get to the metal-- at least for the first few turns. This assures that your tap will line up at the correct angle to the hole you just drilled leading up to the metal.
 
Yeah, I just finished a build and one of the lock bolts didn't have enough threads so it wouldn't go through the lock bolster and tighten it up. It was a lot easier to just lengthen the threads than to order a new lock bolt and wait for the mail to arrive (though I probably have an extra or three around here somewhere).
 
Zonie, thanks!

Putting a few of the comments together, A round die. Taps and dies for whatever I really expect to use;

The breech plug is 5/8-18. Both it and the barrel are already threaded but being able to chase the threads might help.

The L&R lock does not yet have screw holes to connect it to the side plate.

"The Gunsmith of Grenville County" suggest starting with 8-32, 6-32, and 4-40. Though he does say the 6-40 is stronger than the 6-32.

The Chambers "White Lightening" touch hole insert is supposed to be 5/16-18.

Brands to look for or avoid? Why are some listed as "left hand"?

Thanks all! This is pretty fun learning.
 
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