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.45 cal full stock hawken

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eggwelder

40 Cal.
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Have a 32 inch octagon barrel coming in .45 cal. 1 inch across the flats. i know that it will be heavy, it will be a bench gun for the most part. I really love the look of the full stock hawken. looking for recommendations for a lock in flint. the rifle will be finished in iron furniture. any ideas for the lock? i don`t like the one that TOW offers with theirs very much.
 
The lock TOTW offers on its full stock Hawken is a L&R late English style with a double throated cock.
(#Lock-LR-900-D)

I would think the double throated cock would be the preferred choice as it is more robust than the late English lock's regular reinforced cock.

As a side note to eggwelder, if you plan on buying a different lock you will have to contact TOTW and tell them you do not want the lock mortise cut.

They might be able to sell you a stock without the cutout. On the other hand, they might not have any stocks that haven't had the mortise pre-cut.

If that's the case, go to Pecatonica River to buy your gun kit or stock.

They are (most likely) the maker of the TOTW stocks and they (Pecatonica River) will gladly make a stock without the lock mortise for you.
You do have to let them know that this is what you want though.

I am not sure what lock you want to use on your full stock Hawken but for the record, the round tail locks were the popular choice by the 1820's.

The pointed tail style Germanic and English locks were going out of favor.
 
Agree with Zonie that the "conventional wisdom" tends to say that if a Plains style Hawken was built in flint that it would "most probably" have a lock similar to the Late English by L&R.

I will give you a slightly different perspective that you can do with what you want.

There are a few Sam Hawken flintlock's still kicking around that existed from his days of working in Maryland and Ohio before he went out to St. Louis.

There is also a good number of sub-50 cal rifles that Sam made after Jake's death - 36, 38 and 40 caliber seems to be the most prolific that survived but there were also 42, 43 and 45 calibers.

Both the brothers learned gun making from their father and he wasn't too picky about "what lock" went on his rifles. It might be that they were of the same mind until they finally started producing their own locks - in fact, they did use locks from about a dozen different makers on their cap guns.

Here is an early S. Hawken Flint. No, doesn't look like a St. Louis gun but this is what he was making early on.

3d27bbc6-c290-4a6c-a0bb-6cd6b9a36fca_zps4vaduxrw.jpg


Now the pic isn't great but I think you could use a Ketland, an Egg, a Twigg or even something like a Chambers Golden Age (which I used on a C. Hawken build and barely had to touch the shape with a file to match a lock Sam's father used on an original).

It kinda depends if you want to make a "flintlock version" of a Plains capgun or you want to make it look like it might have actually looked like if was built near the end of the flint era - not the same thing..
 
more like it was built at the end of the flintlock era. i still have a lot of part collecting, everything from breech plug to butt plate.
i`m going to do the stock from a blank, curly maple or flame birch (thats whats local here) i`ve been doing some practising on a half stock investarms that has a cracked wrist and lock panel.
 
I'm building a fullstock Leman in flint and using the Davis "Late English" lock. http://www.redaviscompany.com/0269.html

My barrel and stock was purchased from a friend as a "precarved" fullstock Hawken ala Jack's Mountain. It will have a little less drop than a typical Leman, but that will fit me better. The choice of hardware differentiates it quite a bit, and the Leman is simpler in that regard. Leman was building trade guns under contract (including flintlock)s at least until 1860!
 
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Where are you in Canada? I'm in Eastern Ontario and may be able to help you with at least a source for stockwood - it will be a "board", but you have options.

Anyhow, I agree with Rich. The Chambers Late Ketland would be pretty near the top of the list for me. It may be the best flintlock on the market today (save a custom made one from Bob Roller etc).

If you are going for a late flintlock vs a "flint plains" rifle you have a fair bit of latitude as to what you want to do with the stock - there just isn't any examples (at least none that have been found) that were built by either of the Hawken brothers "in St. Louis". But there is a few (debatable) accounts of at least Sam building some flint rifles when he first got to St. Louis and set up a shop on his own (prior to Jake coming in with him).

I have a significant personal interest in what one of those early St. Louis rifles may have looked like. I had many discussions with Chuck Burrows (LaBonte) before he passed on and also sought out opinions from Louie Parker and Don Stith and the consensus is "there is no consensus".

This picture details some of the "progression" in the stock shape starting with the Maryland style that they learned from their father moving up to the mid-1830's where you can see the (birth) of the plains style. It may be helpful in determining what you want your stock to look like.

(I have a number of pics for the rifles below as well as at least two or three dozen others. So if you every need some pics to study/work from just drop me a note and I can send you what I have)

EvolutionoftheHawkenrifle_zps2b58bb34.jpg
 
Graham,
We`ve met before, I acquired 2 curly half stocks from you last summer. I lived near Gananoque. i`ve since been posted to St John`s, and am in the process of setting up my tiny workspace in the new to me house, that over looks the North Atlantic. there are several people near me that own original Besses. they remember their grandfathers still using them for bird and rabbit hunting, and know that those "old guns" are still tucked in the back of the hall closets, replaced by the venerable Lee enfield. isolation has it`s advantages...

one of those half stocks, when i find it, is in the process of being carved into a replacement stock for one of my rifles that has a cracked stock. Thank you for the offers of assistance, I`ll PM you when it comes time, especially when i`m looking for a stock.
I will be back in Gods country from time to time.



I do like the late Ketland, it`s the round tail that i really don`t like on the L & R English. just reminds me of all the commercial repros made since the `70s.
 
I find that rounded lock unattractive as well, so is why I've chosen to emulate a Leman rather than Hawken.

I have an original longrifle here, late flint period with single bolt lock, and will have to take some photos.
 
Yes, I remember you now :)

And yes, if you went with the late Ketland I would leave the tail on it. I don't think it would detract from the style and I personally believe that if Sam had that lock he would have likewise used it "as is" (but that's just my opinion).
 
eggwelder said:
Have a 32 inch octagon barrel coming in .45 cal. 1 inch across the flats. i know that it will be heavy, it will be a bench gun for the most part.

Have you given any consideration to tapering the barrel? It's in keeping with the originals and has a dramatic affect on handling.

I have a 58 Caliber GRRW Hawken sporting a 36" barrel. Though it tips the scale just over 12 pounds, it handles beautifully with it's taper from 1 1/8" at the breech to 1" at the muzzle.
 
tapering....hmmmmmm. that would drop a bit of weight.
would that best be accomplished by machining or drawfiling? or both? it`s something to consider i think.
 
That depends on how much you value your time, and how good you are with a file. If you call around I bet you could find someone to do the job for $50-$60 or maybe less. You'll probably go through that much value in wearing out files taking it down that much yourself, but you'll be building muscles in the mean time through hours and hours and hours of highly intellectual stimulation going back and forth for days on end. Remember the Roman Galley scene in Ben Hur? That's how you'll feel.

Most people that hand swamp a barrel for the experience of having done it, don't need the experience a 2nd time.
 
I believe you. I`m not sure I`ll draw file anything unless its just the finishing touch, like before browning.
I still have lots of parts to collect, such as the rest of the rifle...
 
eggwelder said:
tapering....hmmmmmm. that would drop a bit of weight.
would that best be accomplished by machining or drawfiling? or both? it`s something to consider i think.

I queried the smith doing a current build for me about tapering the 7/8" 45 caliber GM barrel. He said he'd happily send it out to save me lotsa bucks, but if I wanted him to do it, he recommended a couple of custom makers to turn me out a custom barrel instead for less money. He's been building guns since the 70's an oughta know.
 

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