English Rifle 62 cal

Hi,
Just finished this mid-18th century English rifle. The stock is English walnut, barrel is Rice 31" 62 cal., and the lock is Chambers. Sideplate and thumb plate are fine silver as well as the wire inlay. All the other mounts are steel. Thanks for looking and I hope you enjoy the photos.

dave

WOW! Nice job.
Michael

Dave,

That is absolutely beautiful. Thanks for posting.

Dave

Pretty :thumbsup: You've got skill's :hatsoff:

Compliments would be difficult.....don't know where to start. Everything from one end to the other is fabulous.....Fred

Just pure stunning work Dave! You are a gifted artist and I am a big fan of all of your builds!

An absolutely stunning rifle, Dave. Your work always transcends superior craftsmanship into pure artistry. I deeply envy the owner of the rifle.

Gus

Very nice Dave, you must have set of super sharp chisels!!!! That inlay work is super!....looks like th wood grew around it....
Marc n tomtom

Dave, this is no where near even a hint of criticism, just curious about a style of rifle that I know very little about.

My question is....do most English rifles have a straight comb that has very little drop fore and aft? In other words....do they have a comb that's parallel to the bbl? Or is your rifle too early for this feature? Like I said, my knowledge of English rifles of any time period is quite lacking......Fred

Thanks for looking everyone,
Gus, the rifle is for me. Sometime next year I'll start on a matching 20 ga fowler with a similar figured English walnut stock. I have the barrel already inlet and I duplicated the silver sideplate and wrist plate. In addition, there will a matching 62 cal horse pistol and turn-off pistol both mounted in silver. It will form a suite of guns representing English work from the 1740-50s. I'll shoot them all but I also hope to use them as tools to teach folks about the quality and artistry of 18th century firearms at living history events. The public sees so many India-made Italian-made repros at events and I want them to see and handle what 18th century makers could really produce.

dave

Wow! Beautiful gun you've made.

Hi Marc,
I have very sharp chisels but I also learned some tricks from folks like Dave Price and my own experience. I used to precisely cut around the borders of locks and tangs with a carving knife that looked like an X-acto. The fit would be very tight but too frquently, when I removed the metal part, it would chip the edge of the inlet. Then after staining and finishing, I would have to go back and scrape the edges of the inlet so I could fit the part into the swelled wood. That was fraught with risk of chipping away wood, particularly within tight curves. Now, I trace the part with a sharp pencil and stab in the inlet cutting on the inside edge of the pencil line. That produces inlets in which the part goes in easily with finger pressure and I don't worry about little gaps. When the wood is finished, it swells and the gaps all disappear. For very small inlays like the silver inlays in the wire designs, I tape the inlay on the wood with Scotch tape and place a thin flexible metal ruler over it to protect the wood. Then I smack it with a hammer with just sufficient force such that the inlay dents the wood leaving its outline when removed. I then stab in around the outside edge of that outline.

dave

Fred,
You ask a really good question. The very unsatisfying short answer is that it depends. You probably have in mind the classic Brown Bess shape with the comb parallel with the bore. Many English sporting guns were made that way but for a sporting gun, fit to the owner was important, just as it is today. My rifle has 3 1/2" of drop at the heel, which fits me like a glove. With that much drop, it would be very hard to bring the comb parallel with the bore without giving the gun a "perch belly" appearance. And there, to some degree, is your answer. They did tend to make them the way you described but within the limits of fit to the shooter. That said, there was some variation. Some combs, like mine had a slight curve, others were straight. Some had straight bottoms, others were curved, like mine. The key to mid-18th century English styling has more to do with the lock and wrist area. The top of the stock begins to arc downward right after the breech and the bottom and top arcs gently converge to a narrow point at the end of the comb. Those curves are hard to get right to produce a classic English look. Moreover, fowling guns often had a raised sighting groove on the tang of the hook breech, which gave the stock a distinctive "humped" appearance at the barrel breech.

dave

Dave Person said:

Thanks for looking everyone,
Gus, the rifle is for me. Sometime next year I'll start on a matching 20 ga fowler with a similar figured English walnut stock. I have the barrel already inlet and I duplicated the silver sideplate and wrist plate. In addition, there will a matching 62 cal horse pistol and turn-off pistol both mounted in silver. It will form a suite of guns representing English work from the 1740-50s. I'll shoot them all but I also hope to use them as tools to teach folks about the quality and artistry of 18th century firearms at living history events. The public sees so many India-made Italian-made repros at events and I want them to see and handle what 18th century makers could really produce.

dave

Click to expand...

Col. Phillip Ludwell Lee of Stratford VA (later home of "Light Horse" Harry Lee and birthplace of General Robert E Lee) owned at least One Turvey Rifle and one Turvey gun from that period and I'm sure he would have been thrilled with your Rifle and other pieces to come En Suite.

"Col. Phil also enjoyed hunting. The inventory of his possessions included “1 Rifle new made by Turvey” and “1 new Turvey,” as well as a fowling piece and a gun.57 The rifle and unspecified firearm were probably made by gunsmith William Turvey (II) of London. Most Virginia planters purchased locally-made rifles, but Col. Phil had sent to London to acquire one of the best rifles available at the time. Much more accurate than those made in the colonies, this rifle was used for recreational game hunting and target matches. Turvey rifles were elegant, artistic pieces, and an obvious status symbol in the colonies.58"
http://www.stratfordhall.org/colle...e-revolution-philip-ludwell-lee-of-stratford/

Gus

Thanks Gus!
I think I read that before from one of your previous posts. Turvey died in 1745 so the information relates to the colonies during the 1740s or earlier. It is interesting that colonial rifles are mentioned and Turvey's guns were more accurate. I wonder what a colonial rifle from that time looked like? The famous Turvey rifle in Kindig's collection and shown in Shumways RCA vol 1 might have spent its career in North America. I'll bet quite a few British officers serving in colonial America brought over English rifles to hunt big game, a pursuit they would not enjoy very often in England. The stock architecture of my gun was inspired by my original English fowler, the Turvey rifle in RCA Vol 1, and the Griffin rifle shown in Bailey's book on British flintlock rifles. And then of course, it was shaped to fit me. I get to shoot it for the first time today.

dave

Dave,

I thought I saw some "Turvey Influence" in your rifle and that's why I posted it.

I am not sure if Turvey and other English Rifles were indeed more accurate than locally made rifles or not in that period. I have not been able to track down where that information came from or if it was just the opinion of the author of that piece I posted. I would not be surprised if Turvey Rifles were generally of higher quality than provincial rifles as to fit, finish, carving, decoration, etc.; but that does not automatically make them more accurate.

Prior to his untimely death and while he was still the Master of the Gun Shop in Colonial Williamsburg, I asked Gary Brumfield what an FIW period Virginia Rifle would have looked like. The problem as he explained it in the 1980’s was there was no known examples extant of any such rifle. (I was also looking to see if possibly anyone was making rifles that early around Fredericksburg, Va where I lived for many years, but none were made around there that early.) Gary’s answer was much the same as he would later write below:

“What did a rifle made in Virginia prior to 1750 look like?
The question about what a pre-1750 longrifle might look like goes WAY beyond Virginia. Documented American rifles made anywhere before 1760 are scarce and, if you toss out the ones with questionable documentation, signatures, or origin, they come down basically to a few parts found in archaeological sites, also sometimes of questionable, European or American, origin. Based on documents, we know that both short rifles and long rifles existed in the colonies prior to the 1740s but nailing down a few surviving examples would be a wonderful breakthrough in research.”
http://www.flintriflesmith.com/WritingandResearch/WebArticles/VirginiaRifle.htm

During that same visit to the CW Gun Shop in the 1980’s, Gary showed me a reproduction of a rifle with a 36 inch barrel and English styling that could have been from that period and more common to the Tidewater through the Piedmont areas of Virginia. I have been wracking my brain to remember the name of the original gunsmith from whose work it was copied and all I can remember was it started with a “B.” Though it was a wonderful “feeling” rifle when I put it to my shoulder, I foolishly didn’t “log it” in my memory as well as I later wished I would have done. I had already gone through Kindig’s book, owned by my best friend in life in the mid 70’s, and this did not look much of anything I pictured an American or Virginia rifle would have looked like.

Gary also explained the “German or German Influenced Rifles” (of which I then thought more likely) were being made in the Shenandoah Rifle in that period, though some rifles also came down from other parts of Pennsylvania.

The next time I go to Colonial Williamsburg, I plan on asking a LOT more questions on rifles of the 1740’s/50’s. I have a standing invitation to get a private tour of the gun collection and much of that will be looking at Early Brown Bess’s in their collection, but also some on the rifles.

Gus

That's one beautiful rifle!

:bow: :bow: :bow: :applause: :applause: :applause: :thumbsup: :bow:

Once again, another "Work of Art".

Hi Hadden and folks and thank you all,
I attached some photos of the muzzle area showing how my turned horn ramrod tip tucks under the muzzle and also shows the rear sight. I used a jaeger sight that I cut down and chiseled the shell finial.

I confess that the art and craft don't come easy and I really work hard at it. I am less of a craftsmen and more an art student but as one of my professional artist friends told me, "learn craft first and then art will come". I followed that advice. Please indulge me just for a moment to give an example of how hard I think about this craft. In the fourth and fifth photos above look at the shape of the trigger guard. Notice that the bow is egg shaped rather than oval. It is a guard purchased from TOW, which has a generic oval bow. By making it egg shaped (inspired by the original English fowler I own) the small bow becomes very elegant and fits the proportions of the stock. It looks so much better than the oval shape of the purchased trigger guard. Not only does it look better, but it has more space in front of the trigger, enough to accommodate a gloved finger. It is all a matter of form and function. Speaking of function, this little gun shoots really well. The numbered groups in the photo of the target are shots from this rifle from a bench at 50 yards. Group 1, which is 3 shots, used 65gr of 3F Swiss powder, 0.610 balls, and 0.020" thick patches and 6 o'clock hold on the black. After tapping the front sight, group 2 includes 6 or 7 shots using 75 gr powder and 6 o'clock hold. After adjusting the front sight group 3 (5 shots) was 75 grs and 6 o'clock hold. Finally, group 4 comprised 5 shots from the bench and 2 offhand using a center black hold. The Rice barrel on this gun really shoots.