Dark stain options

I'm about thru with the shaping on my early Lancaster LR, and we were discussing stains and finishes. The wood has quite a bit of tiger stripe and I definitely want that visible, but I also want a darker stock, something that wouldn't look out of place leaning on a mantle at Williamsburg. Ken suggested maybe aqua fortis, I've read and heard about it, but am not sure.
What are the pros/cons of aqua fortis, what stain would you suggest for my purposes.
I have several scrap pieces to try on.
Eterry
Btw, Ken is partial to B/C Colonial Maple I think, how does it compare?

AF is the best for bringing out curl. But you get what you get, based on the chemistry of the wood.
You can add the stain of your choice over it to tone it, and darken it to your pleasure.
Try to stay with dye/alcohol based stains.

LMF makes a great variety, and if you want it really dark, you can add some black trans-tint as well.

I don't use af anymore, I put it on too heavy on a red maple stock that had beautiful striping, and it ruined it.
Feibing's leather stain.

Aqua fortis is the traditional stain for maple. Several coats with heat in between does the trick.

I've made a few batches of aqua fortis and it is my preferred stain. Dye based stains can lighten and vary in penetration. Test whatever stain you hope to use on scraps from the blank. If you used a pre-carve you can test in the barrel channel. I have read about but not tried using roofing tar dissolved in turpentine. It is said to give a dark stain.

Mike Brines said:

I don't use af anymore, I put it on too heavy on a red maple stock that had beautiful striping, and it ruined it.

Click to expand...

Can you elaborate?

To be fair, I don't use AF. I use ferric nitrate..... As far as I know, the only way to ruin a stock with AF, is if it has too much residual acid.
With ferric nitrate, that won't happen.

Commercially available AF will produce a dark stain, especially if not fully neutralized. You must be patient though. It starts out looking like some of the pigmented stains, but under an oil finish in about a six week time frame it will darken considerably. I don't know if the residual acid darkens the oil or wood, but in either case it can result in a very dark antique looking finish.

:grin: I, too, built a early Lancaster. I wanted a dark finish so I talked to the guys at Log Cabin. I followed their advice and used Homer Dangler Dark Brown and his Dark Brown with yellow
highlight. Really brought the curl out and is nice and dark. It's a alcohol based stain. I used two coats and rubbed with 000 steel wool after each coat had thoroughly dried. Then followed the stain with 3-2-1 finish.Just another suggestion you might want to consider. :thumbsup:

Well, I put it on pretty heavy, and as I held it over the stove, it just kept getting darker. I washed it down with baking soda, let it dry, sanded what I could with 400 grit, and to this day any metal(brass)gets discolored very quickly, and the steel rusts pretty fast. You can't even see the striping anymore. I try to keep the steel oiled up pretty good.
I love the rifle, it shoots better now in flintlock than it did with caps. It's a .32, and I have a load light enough to shoot skwerls in my backyard.

I have used a paste of baking soda to neutralize. Others use ammonia or lye (?).

Another approach others have posted: They added additional iron to the AF reagent to ensure the acid was depleted before using on maple.

This is THE color found on the average 18th-19th century American rifle (assuming it is not finished with linseed oil, which makes it somewhat darker and redder).



Just randomly selected from Aspenshade's website.

Aqua Fortis (neutralized with lye) creates a sort of light to medium orangy-brown color on sugar maple. This color right here ^^^ It does seem to generally make a more brown color on red maple, but I rarely use red maple. Each piece of wood will be different, of course, but all I have done so far fall very close to the original gun shown above. Some old guns are even brighter orange. I can reproduce this effect by immediately heating the Aqua Fortis on the stock without letting it dry and "pre-darken".... not that I ever want to actually do that... :haha:

The grain is bright and clear and "chatoyant" (a French word... ugh, French... :haha: ). No extra staining, NO "rubbing back". Guns like the above appear to have been finished by filling the grain with shellac (or whatever other lac. I like Buttonlac), and an oil varnish is applied to the surface as a top coat. The shellac keeps the grain light and clear, and keeps the curl from looking painted on (as I think it does when people use pigment/aniline dyes, and especially when it is "rubbed back"). The darkness in some of the curl exhibited above, and the darkness on many other old rifles that still have much of their old oil varnish on the surface, seems to be from the oil varnish turning a dark, smoky, almost metallic black (which is NOT "oxidation". I have been told that it is caused by the lead type drying agents working their way to the surface... or something, I don't remember! :grin: ). I think some of the oil varnish would have gotten down into the end grain of the curl in some places where the shellac didn't fill the grain sufficiently.... along with 200+ years of dirt and grime. The stock was not intentionally stained to make the curl look black.

I have seen some old rifles that are pretty black all over, even deep in the wood. This would likely be caused by unneutralized Aqua Fortis, which will turn quite dark over time, or by acidic linseed oil finishes, which can also turn quite dark... or both.

:wink:

Thanks, Black Hand. I'm in the middle of a couple of projects, but I intend to strip it down and give it a try.

I ave used the AF from Track a few times now, and have always gotten a reddish brown color .

I always use a heat gun to kick it off. And I don't go heavy on the AF. Just enough to cover the wood. Finish with boiled linseed oil.

Since the subject is "Dark stain options", this curly maple stock was stained with several coats of Birchwood Casey Walnut and Birchwood Casey Colonial Brown. Both of these stains are alcohol based.

The stains were applied after first treating the wood with a coating of lye water which was neutralized with vinegar.



The Colonial Brown gives the wood the reddish tint. Unfortunalely, I don't think Colonial Brown is made any more but it can sometimes be found being sold gun shows when an old gunbuilder is selling off his supplies.

Thanks everyone for the info, and especially the pictures. Vacca, that's the color and sheen I have in mind, I want to emulate that finish. I was tempted to make my AF, but I read that's not a good idea, so willeprobably but a bottle. I have an electric heat gun.
Again, thanks to everyone.

Eterry

Mike Brines has it right. I used a dark brown leather stain from Fiebigs, then let dry. Just find a stain you like though.
I then used a mix of two shot glasses of good boiled linseed oil with one shot glass of good turpentine and one teaspoon of white vinegar. Use glass bottle and shake often.

I used a small acid brush for relief engraving/carving and a cotton dauber for the rest of the stock. Let sit for 15 mins then use finger and rub out excess.
Wait a few days, wipe off and excess. Repeat after 7 days. I did mine for about 6 times.
BTW, if it cakes up in the lines or carvings, get a nylon 'toothbrush' hard bristle brush and put your mix on it, then wait for a few then brush out vigorously.
Hope this may help. Good Building!!

Get hold of some Ferric Nitrate and mix your own. A $10 bottle of crystals from "The Science Company" will go a long way.

Zonie said:

Since the subject is "Dark stain options", this curly maple stock was stained with several coats of Birchwood Casey Walnut and Birchwood Casey Colonial Brown. Both of these stains are alcohol based.

The stains were applied after first treating the wood with a coating of lye water which was neutralized with vinegar.

The Colonial Brown gives the wood the reddish tint. Unfortunalely, I don't think Colonial Brown is made any more but it can sometimes be found being sold gun shows when an old gunbuilder is selling off his supplies.

Click to expand...

Birchwood Casey's OLD Formula Walnut stain had some nice red in it, but changed it in the late 1990's/early 2000's to not having any red and the stain was much poorer in quality. The Colonial Stain was changed as well before they stopped making it. Though I had used dozens of bottles of Birchwood Casey stain in the 70's - 90's. I gave up on it entirely in the early 2000's.

A lot of folks used Dixie's "LA0201 Dixie Antique Stain," which is just a bottle of Fiebings Leather (Alcohol based) Dye/Stain, but maybe a "special blend" as it has a LOT more red in it than what I like.
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=3913

There are two Alcohol based stains I use most of the time nowadays. Fiebings "Light Brown" and "Medium Brown" Leather Dye. Both have some red in them, but the Medium Brown has more. If I want to have a somewhat lighter brown color with red in it for woods like maple, I build up coats of "Light Brown," by adding 1 part stain to 1 part alcohol by volume. BUT one thing one has to know is the color and especially the "red" seems to settle in the bottom of the bottle. So one has to literally shake the devil out of the bottle to mix the color up, before using it, or the red won't show up till the last half of the bottle.

I use the "Medium Brown" and build up the coats by a 1 to 1 ratio by volume as well when I do good walnut. For military gun stocks, though, I normally just use Medium Brown - straight from the bottle.

Gus

Vacca, a little red is ok, and I'm not looking for a bright sheen. Zonie that rifle is beautiful, but just a little red and shiny for me. Stophel, I guess that is an original long rifle, correct? If that is what it looks like now that's fine, because I'm not going to be concerned with what mine looks like in 200 years !! :grin:

I do have one more serious question...I've heard that AF can darken if left in the sunlight...is this true? I'm guessing its just rumor if you follow the instructions correctly, but would like some input.

Eterry