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1853 Harpers Ferry Help

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AJ100

32 Cal.
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Dec 28, 2014
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I have been trying to research the Model 1841 produced at Harpers Ferry and have seen a few pics of other rifles but am not sure if everything on this rifle is legit.


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Link

I can get this one pic up but there are 44 others so I will put the link to the photobucket address so you can see the rest. I put them up as a slideshow but you can freeze on any pic to study it a little better.

The barrel is 33" long, bore measures .533 using my calipers and the rifling is in nice shape. From the research I found these barrels were browned and this one has some surface rust over that. I know better than to "clean" it up but if you scratch at the finish with your finger nail some of that grit comes off and you can see the brown color under it. It looks like this rifle was kept in the attic and not out in the barn.

Lock stamped Harpers Ferry, 1853, behind the hammer and and has the eagle in front of it. The barrel has what looks like 1853 stamped on the top tang. There is a letter s stamped on the right barrel flat just in front of the bolster.

The letters W W are stamped on the left side of
P
the barrel above the flat on that side. I can see some other markings behind those but can't make them out. From the little I was able to learn these were proof marks. They are there but tough to make out. It has the correct brass front sight and rear V notch.
It does look like someone, at sometime in its life, dropped the rifle muzzle down. You can see in the pic that the top of the barel at the muzzle is damaged.

Probably fell against a boulder when the soldier carrying it was shot and killed bravely defending his position against overwhelming odds.

The letters J L B are stamped on the left of the stock above the trigger and inside the patch box. There is a spare nipple in the box. The ramrod is a steel tupip tip. From my surfing I saw that the original rods were brass tipped and the later, around1855, rifles were fitted with these steel tipped rods so they could be used with the minnie balls.

That was one of my concerns. Woulda, coulda, shoulda, 1853 rifle have this type of rod. This rifle was not altered to the bigger caliber but it has the steel tipped rod.

This rifle was used. There is some checking in the stock behind the lock. It looks like the wood has dried out and the grain lines opened up a little. They really don't look like cracks but it's tough to tell. The are various nicks and dings in the wood but no other splits or cracks that I can see.

The lock functions fine. The hammer spring is really strong and there is no play or slop in the trigger. The barrel does have a fine coating of surface rust on it. As I said before, if you scratch at it with your fingernail you can see a smooth brown finish beneath it. The steel has no pitting in it just an overall brown "patina". The brass is tarnished. The rear band has a small scratch in it and the butt plate has a few dings in the top edge.

I have put the photobucket link up so you can take at look at it. There are 45 pics. I tried to show everything I could.
The question is, should I buy it and what is it worth? The owner told me somebody told him, you know how that goes, that it could be worth between 3 and 4 THOUSAND. I would have to think about that for a while.

Thanks in advance for any help.

AJ
 
The M1841 is in excellent "attic" condition and, if you decide to purchase, can have a good quality light weight gun oil applied to all iron and/or steel parts but keep it off the wood and brass, especially the wood. Only enough to cover the metal and, after a few days, wipe off. Repeat 2 or 3 more times, this will remove a surprising amount of the surface rust.

Under no circumstances try to remove the patina on the brass, it is beautiful the way it is.

Same for the wood, leave the stock as is. You could apply a light coating of Vaseline Petroleum Jelly to the wood if you decide to disassemble the gun (I wouldn't unless you are completely familiar with firearms disassembly and have proper fitting tools, especially good screw drivers and know how to use them) but it will be fine as is. If the Vaseline is used, allow to sit for a short while then wipe it off firmly with a cotton cloth, this will remove surface dirt and leave the original finish completely undisturbed.

As far as price? $49.95 would be good (for you :) ) but his asking price does seem to be a little (?) high to me. Check Flayderman's Guide for a reasonably accurate estimate of the value and go from there.

Remember, if you do get it, treat is carefully and it's value will rise as time goes by making it a good item for investment. Last, resist the temptation to shoot it, while it is probably safe for that, the wear and tear on it will damage the value in the long run. That original cone (nipple) should stay just where it is, but you would have to replace it if you shoot it - the first of many alterations that will disturb a legitimate piece of history.

Now, for what it is worth (not much I am sure) I have had my say and there will be other opinions expressed and you can look forward to at least some good advice.
 
I agree but would use Renaissance wax for the final protection.
My issue of Flayderman's 8th edition lists the 1841 US (Mississippi) rifle in good condition $1,150 to fine condition $4,000.

Without a hands on inspection it's hard to say but I probably wouldn't give more than $1,500 for what the photos show as a little above good.

If the rifle were a Whitney contract it would be worth the $4,000 the owner says but there were 25,296 Harper Ferry rifles made making them more common.
 
I have seen more than a few Model 1841s auction for between $1,000 and $2,000. Most of those were from Harper's Ferry. The one you are considering seems to be in better shape than the ones I've seen, with some of the original brown varnish remaining on the barrel.
As a previous poster said, Harpers Ferry are the most common. I'm not expert enough to know if the ramrod is original-that too will effect value.
 
Thanks for the replies. I know they made a lot of them at Harpers Ferry and the prices and auction sites have a lot of different numbers.

Have seen "Sold" prices of $2000-$3000 Just found one that sold in a CA auction for $7500

And the one I have a chance to buy is in about the same shape. I know, whatever some one is willing to pay.

Again, thanks for the help

AJ



AJ
 
The proofmarks you saw were V (Viewed) and P (Proved) and an Eagle head though that particular style doesn't look much like one like the later ones.
 
Original 7 groove round ball rifling. Can't explain steel tip ramrod except it may just be an early replacement. WW over P stamp may be barrel prover though not common on later rifles and muskets. I've seen an example with AW over P on the barrel. These stamps may have been used by members of the Wager or Wernwag families who worked at the Musket Factory and Rifle Works. JLB was an inspector and those are his stamps. On later arms the inspector used an India Ink stamp of the side panel. On my old computer, I have a full listing of inspectors and their initials, but it won't boot up. If this was a Remington, Robbins, Kendall & Lawrence, a Robbins & Lawrence, a Tryon or a Whitney, you could probably expect a higher price. Though it's not in great condition, it's still a decent piece and the fact that it's got the original rifling may add a small premium though bore condition is not important to many collectors. (It would be to me, but then I'd want to shoot it). Since it's not in pristine, unfired condition, I personally wouldn't have a problem shooting it, heck, who am I trying to kid? If it was armory fresh I'd still shoot it.

Why is this in the Smoothbore section?
 
Thanks for the help.

As far as why it eneded up in the "smoothbore" section you would have to ask one of the administrators.

I first had it in the percussion catagory but moved it to the ID section.

AJ
 
If you get it, you might want to try wiping it all over with just a soft cloth with a SMALL bit of Renaissance Wax on the cloth, before doing anything else. Wipe it gently back and forth, not really rubbing it. You might be surprised to see the surface rust and dirt disappearing, while the patina is left untouched.

As always, try it on a small, hidden area, to see how it does.

I saw a video on this just yesterday.

Good luck on the gun. Looks like a nice one. :thumbsup:
 
The muzzle looks awfully sharp and shiny not counting the damaged area. Are you sure the barrel has not been trimmed back a little in more recent times ? Not trying to rain on your parade ; I just don't want to see you get taken by paying full price for a gun that has been slighty altered. If that is the case, if you ever try to sell the gun to a knowledgeable collector, they may beat you over the head over the alteration ( if it has been ) so to speak in an effort to whittle the price down. It is a nice looking gun, by the way. Find out what the original length was exactly and measure the barrel yourself before laying down your hard cash.
 
Thanks for the reply. Measuring the length was the first thing I did. Measuring down the left side of the barrel from the tip of the muzzle to where the wood stock starts, just below the number 1 in the date on the tang measures 33".

If you freeze the slideshow on pic #4, the one showing the date, you can see the wood part of the stock I am talking about. From what I have learned about the Model 1841 this is the correct length.

Thanks Again,
AJ
 
Thanks for all the help. The owner came off the $3000 number but not by much. I told him that since I couldn't buy it I would try and sell it for him. He said he would give me a couple of bucks for doing it so I guess that is what I'm going to do.

Thanks Again
 
Well, it won't be a total washout after all. I hope it works out for you both. I've been in that position, coming up short trying to buy an old gun or trading for one. It's frustrating.
 

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