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why pure lead
- Thread starter MosinRob
- Start date
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A round ball loses velocity quicker because of the lack of sectional density and the aerodynamics. The softer the lead is, the easier it is for it to expand at lower speeds. Soft lead is also desirable for hollow based conicals because softer lead will conform to the groves to create a gas seal. Over powder wads can be used to seal gasses with alloy type non-conicals.
MosinRob said:
I've used wheel weights for RBs and they work fine. Soft lead is best for conicals though.
No your right it doesn not touch the barrel but it does deform slightly there the lands imprint the patch weave. The impurities in lead will make it weigh light and we need the weight in a round ball. Also there is the ball transmitting energy as it deforms. A harder ball would exit with more remaining energy. There is a post under hunting where the member used brass balls. I was suprised at how well the brass killed a deer. As I remember it was a large caliber! Geo. T.
That is an ongoing debate. Do balls obturate or do they not?
I have never looked down a bore at point of firing to observe :shocked2: but am of the (unproven) opinion there is no obturation, soft or hard.
Many Klatch
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If you have access to pure lead then use it. If all you can get is wheelweights then that is OK too. Just don't try to switch back and forth from one to the other or mix them in the melting pot. The wheelweights are not pure lead so they form ball that weighs slightly less and is slightly smaller than pure lead, which will mess up your accuracy.
As long as you stick to one or the other you should be OK accuracy wise. As to knockdown power I would think that the pure lead would be better, but there are hunters of larger game like Elk or Bear or African game that go to harder lead for the penetration.
Many Klatch
As long as you stick to one or the other you should be OK accuracy wise. As to knockdown power I would think that the pure lead would be better, but there are hunters of larger game like Elk or Bear or African game that go to harder lead for the penetration.
Many Klatch
I'm not sure it was a conscious choice, based on ballistics in flight, or for impact...,
It may simply be an ism, a default situation..., since folks started getting back into the ML's in the 60's and 70's, it was easier to load cap-n-ball revolvers (by far the most popular BP guns in that era) with "pure" lead, CW muskets shooting traditional minnie-balls like all lead too, and the centennial of the CW played a big part in the rebirth of BP arms..., and if you have a company that produces swaged not poured lead round ball..., again all lead is preferred in the manufacturing process.
So when companies started making molds for the DIY folks, the molds may have been sized to produce the right size ball with pure lead simply because that was all folks knew at the time.
So now, after many decades, we know that a .490 hole or bigger at impact is pretty big, and folks have found that using bullet alloy reclaimed from pistol berms at the local range, or wheel weight alloy from the local tire shop, do the job very well, with good accuracy, even when they don't deform much. So jiggery pokery is needed with patch and bullet combinations, as the alloys don't shrink as much when they cool..., but many have found a solution to that. Now we find custom mold makers adjusting special order molds to cast alloys into the old "all lead" diameters.
Bottom line, if you take out both lungs in a deer at impact, the fact the exit wound was say .59 when the entry was .50 is sorta moot.
LD
It may simply be an ism, a default situation..., since folks started getting back into the ML's in the 60's and 70's, it was easier to load cap-n-ball revolvers (by far the most popular BP guns in that era) with "pure" lead, CW muskets shooting traditional minnie-balls like all lead too, and the centennial of the CW played a big part in the rebirth of BP arms..., and if you have a company that produces swaged not poured lead round ball..., again all lead is preferred in the manufacturing process.
So when companies started making molds for the DIY folks, the molds may have been sized to produce the right size ball with pure lead simply because that was all folks knew at the time.
So now, after many decades, we know that a .490 hole or bigger at impact is pretty big, and folks have found that using bullet alloy reclaimed from pistol berms at the local range, or wheel weight alloy from the local tire shop, do the job very well, with good accuracy, even when they don't deform much. So jiggery pokery is needed with patch and bullet combinations, as the alloys don't shrink as much when they cool..., but many have found a solution to that. Now we find custom mold makers adjusting special order molds to cast alloys into the old "all lead" diameters.
Bottom line, if you take out both lungs in a deer at impact, the fact the exit wound was say .59 when the entry was .50 is sorta moot.
LD
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Loyalist Dave said:
Excellent. :hatsoff:
Mooman's answer is a good one, but also consider the economy of producing pure Pb RB's, especially in the past. (I'm thinking of various governments from the 16th century onward.) Lead ores were [then] plentiful, easlily smelted, and easily cast/and or swaged into projectiles. Antimony, arsenic, and tin [ores] were not and using them would add to the complexity and costs of production. Keep in mind too, that those governments often had "financial cliffs" of their own to deal with, so production economies realized by using pure Pb were not to be scoffed at.
Flash Pan Dan
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You are correct about a long range bullet obtruding. But those bullets are much heavier and have much more bearing surface than a round ball. All of which adds to the resistance against the pressure developed by the powder charge. In addition, 20/1 is not really that hard of an amalgam. All of which goes to make an apples to oranges comparison in this case. IMHO
Joel/Calgary
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With respect, obturation is a technical term used numerous technical disciplines, with a consistent meaning: the sealing of something, whatever the mechanism. In this case, the bullet upset PRODUCES the obturation of he bore.paulab said:
Whether or not a patched round ball upsets on firing, it is a well-enough established fact that with a tight-enough patch, they do obturate the bore.rifleman1776 said:
Regards,
Joel
Yes, I realize that is sometimes said around here that the pedants are revolting.
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Everybody has always used whatever they could get where they were at the time and made it work.
Isn't that part of the charm?
Isn't that part of the charm?
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Joel/Calgary said:
Dude, whether or not the ball expands into the rifling is a matter of how it gets slapped on the backside. Whether or not any expansion is enough to matter is a function of how much it expands and how deep the rifling is versus the patch. After that is the matter of how the mass/thickness of patch material increases with the distance forward of ball centerline due to the expanding circumference length of the patch. It's like a flared tube compression fitting joint.
All we can do is find out what works in our piece and be real happy to find it.
MosinRob said:
It depends on the land groove ratio. Some original rifles have wide lands and very narrow grooves. This can make a rifle very difficult to load with hard lead.
Hard lead was commonly used for heavy game in Africa and India. Back in the day they used mercury to harden the lead. The English rifles often had double the number of grooves an American rifle would have. This reduce the bearing surface of the lands and made hard lead easier to load. Hard lead greatly increased penetration for animals like Elephant. Even a 4 bore with soft lead may fail to give adequate penetration on heavy game when cast soft. Cast hard a 10 ga ball will kill African Elephant with lung shots.
1814 Common Rifle
This is a 58 Green Mountain fouled from a proof load.
These barrels will load fine with hard lead though generally a slightly thinner patch it needed. Balls cast of Wheel Weight alloy also cast larger than pure lead.
Dan
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When sending barrels to Mr. Hoyt for his "best round ball rifling" I had no expectations on what would be received except that he would send me what was best. He did. Haven't tried wheel weight alloy but I have no doubt it will work as well.
:thumbsup:
:thumbsup:
bubba.50
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for roundballs you can do as others have said & play with patch thickness & probably be okay. but there's an isolated line in the middle of loyalist dave's reply that tells it best. today's muzzleloader mold makers have designed their molds to drop the correct diameter ball with pure lead. bullets cast from wheel weight lead will be a couple thousandths bigger & can mean the difference between loading with yer short starter & ramrod or havin' to drive'em home with a hammer & a stout rod. for what it's worth & have a good'en, bubba.
While a patched ball does not touch the bore, the imprint of the lands will be pressed into the ball if you use a "tight load". The patch and ball combination which is "tight but workable" with a pure lead ball will become impossibly tight with a hard ball. This is especially true if pure lead and wheel weight lead is cast in the same mold because the wheel weights will not only be hard but also a couple of thousandths larger. While wheel weight balls may shoot OK for plinking the best accuracy will come from a pure lead ball and a tight patch combination.MosinRob said:
Conicals may be best in pure lead or with an alloy, depending on the exact load. Long heavy conicals, such as a 500 grain .45 caliber, have the inertial resistance to cause upset of an alloy bullet with a heavy powder charge. Shorter conicals such as a 350 grain .50 caliber will probably do best in pure lead. That is something to be juggled with conicals, bullet alloy, powder charge, lube all must be in proper balance. Patched balls are pretty simple and easy by comparison.
Billnpatti
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For target shooting, it actually makes no difference what kind of lead you use as long as your rifle sights are set for the density of the alloy you are using. But, as others have said, soft lead will expand better in animals than will the harder alloys.
Show me one champion shooter who is shooting wheelweights. You don't have to use pure lead to shoot in competition, you only have to use pure lead if you want to win. A difference of two or three gains in ball weight will make no discernible difference in sight setting but a hard ball will absolutely not group well enough to win any serious match.
