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18th Century Military Accoutrements Leather?

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I'm currently teaching myself how to make FIW and RevWar military accoutrements (cartridge boxes, belts and straps, and scabbards). I've learned how to cut and drill the wooden ammunition blocks, and have successfully made a couple of mock-up "bags" with straps to learn how to stitch leather using waxed heavy linen thread. My questions though are what modern leathers are the best to use to achieve the most accurate reproductions, and where can I get them? I'm only interested in making militia and Continental "Old Construction" accoutrements. No British or "New Construction" boxes (yet).

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
 
In my un-educated opinion, they would have used thick leather for durability.

I'm sure more than a few here would appreciate some pics of your efforts. :)
 
Definitely use veg tanned leather. I would try and find some information about whether they used calf or something other than plain old cow leather as well. Try and find leather that is already the correct thickness, as that is much easier than skiving it down to a desired thickness. Also, pay attention to what part of the hide it comes from. You don't want to make something that is supposed to be rigid out of belly leather, as it can be excessively stretchy. For straps, back leather will definitely be the best, etc.
 
Thanks for the advice! Very helpful! Turns out that there's a Tandy retail shop within day-trip driving distance, so I'll be paying it a visit very soon to look for appropriate veg-tanned leather. Thanks again!
 
Veg tanned 100%. You can also easily make your own vinegaroon "dye" to get the period black (Google DIY vinegaroon- you already have what you need likely at home). Once you have your dye, paint that on the leather and the chemical reaction will darken. If it's not completely black, just put on more coats until it's black. I like to balance the acidity of the vinegar once the leather is dyed by using some baking soda water (just in case any steel comes in contact and reacts to the acidity). Once dry, I like pure neatsfoot to condition and then you're good to go. I've made a lot of accoutrements, but not any cartridge boxes. My assumption would be around 5-6 oz. leather would be a good choice but that may be another thing to Google to see what thickness folks use for cartridge boxes.
 
Awesome! Thanks for the tip on the dye! Exactly what I needed since Fiebing's dye and conditioner is pricey.
 
I would also like to offer up a recommendation for Leather and Hides, Wholesaler-Kentucky Leather and Hides Kentucky Leather and Hides. They offer lots of good hides and very reasonable prices . I have also done business with Distant Drums Leather: Distant Drums They often have great sales on many different types of leathers at very cheap prices, especially if you decide to get in making items such as soft footwear, but they also have veg tanned leathers suitable for cartridge boxes and etc.
 
I would also like to offer up a recommendation for Leather and Hides, Wholesaler-Kentucky Leather and Hides Kentucky Leather and Hides. They offer lots of good hides and very reasonable prices . I have also done business with Distant Drums Leather: Distant Drums They often have great sales on many different types of leathers at very cheap prices, especially if you decide to get in making items such as soft footwear, but they also have veg tanned leathers suitable for cartridge boxes and etc.
BIG SECOND VOTE FOR KENTUCKY LEATHER AND HIDES!

I'm currently teaching myself how to make FIW and RevWar military accoutrements (cartridge boxes, belts and straps, and scabbards).

For folks looking to make cartridge boxes, these must be functional, as well as look-the-part, of course. Check with KLH and see if they have any scrap bundles for sale. These normally contain pieces cur from thick veg tanned hide that area large enough to complete a 24 round cartridge box, or a bayonet scabbard.

IF you do white straps, go with rough side out. It tends to do a better job of holding onto the white coloring agent better than smooth side out.

LD
 
I'm currently teaching myself how to make FIW and RevWar military accoutrements (cartridge boxes, belts and straps, and scabbards). I've learned how to cut and drill the wooden ammunition blocks, and have successfully made a couple of mock-up "bags" with straps to learn how to stitch leather using waxed heavy linen thread. My questions though are what modern leathers are the best to use to achieve the most accurate reproductions, and where can I get them? I'm only interested in making militia and Continental "Old Construction" accoutrements. No British or "New Construction" boxes (yet).

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
Hi TR,

When I began making 18th century American Militia Cartouche Pouches back in the 1970's, about the only thing available to study was Sketchbook 76. I would have LOVED to have had a copy of this book then, but I didn't run across it until the early 1980's. I STILL occasionally refer back to it all these years later.

https://archive.org/details/artofhandsewingl0000stoh
A few years later, I picked up a copy of the following booklet. Yeah, I know it of almost no use for what you are asking, but it is a treasure trove of info on 18th century leatherworking.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/58293/58293-h/58293-h.htm
Fortunately in the later 1970's, I was allowed into the "back room or storage room" of the Historic Fort Wayne Foundation museum to look at original pouches and I learned a lot about them from originals.

Today there is an excellent online source to study original pouches in the link below. The first half or so of the examples should be right up your alley. You should be able to scroll down through it on this forum:



There are a lot of what some might call little things that will help you make your repros more accurate, because there were details they did in the 18th century that are no longer common for many leatherworkers. Most of the details also make repro items better and last longer.

We have had/have two great folks who have posted all kinds of 18th century leatherworking info on this forum and who I consider true experts. The first was La Bonte or LaBonte (though I can't find his name anymore in the membership lists) aka Chuck Burrows. Chuck left this world far too early in 2016. If anyone can find his correct membership name, perhaps his old posts are still available on the forum archives?

Capt. Jas. aka James Rogers is still with us and I highly recommend you use the search function and read everything he has written on the subject. A few years back, James recommended the following DVD's to me by Eric Myall. I bought the entire set and it was some of the best money I ever spent. Eric's health was not good then, but if it is still available, Part 6. Making a Militia Cartridge Box would be just the ticket for you.

https://thewilliamsburgsaddler.weebly.com/buy-dvds.html
Here is a more recent and great discussion involving Jay Howlett and his apprentice on 18th century stitching:


OK, more info in the next post.

Gus
 
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Hi TR,

When I began making 18th century American Militia Cartouche Pouches back in the 1970's, about the only thing available to study was Sketchbook 76. I would have LOVED to have had a copy of this book then, but I didn't run across it until the early 1980's. I STILL occasionally refer back to it all these years later.

https://archive.org/details/artofhandsewingl0000stoh
A few years later, I picked up a copy of the following booklet. Yeah, I know it of almost no use for what you are asking, but it is a treasure trove of info on 18th century leatherworking.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/58293/58293-h/58293-h.htm
Fortunately in the later 1970's, I was allowed into the "back room or storage room" of the Historic Fort Wayne Foundation museum to look at original pouches and I learned a lot about them from originals.

Today there is an excellent online source to study original pouches in the link below. The first half or so of the examples should be right up your alley. You should be able to scroll down through it on this forum:



There are a lot of what some might call little things that will help you make your repros more accurate, because there were details they did in the 18th century that are no longer common for many leatherworkers. Most of the details also make repro items better and last longer.

We have had/have two great folks who have posted all kinds of 18th century leatherworking info on this forum and who I consider true experts. The first was La Bonte or LaBonte (though I can't find his name anymore in the membership lists) aka Chuck Burrows. Chuck left this world far too early in 2016. If anyone can find his correct membership name, perhaps his old posts are still available on the forum archives?

Capt. Jas. aka James Rogers is still with us and I highly recommend you use the search function and read everything he has written on the subject. A few years back, James recommended the following DVD's to me by Eric Myall. I bought the entire set and it was some of the best money I ever spent. Eric's health was not good then, but if it is still available, Part 6. Making a Militia Cartridge Box would be just the ticket for you.

https://thewilliamsburgsaddler.weebly.com/buy-dvds.html
Here is a more recent and great discussion involving Jay Howlett and his apprentice on 18th century stitching:


OK, more info in the next post.

Gus

Thanks for the wonderful post and information, Gus!
 
Thanks for the wonderful post and information, Gus!
LT, (May I assume that is short for Lieutenant or perhaps your initials?)

You are quite welcome, so now let's get into some more technical info you requested.

Oh and before I go further, I'm not trying to be a know-it-all, but I'm using the common 18th century terminology. Cartridge Box is a term that didn't begin to be commonly used for a pouch with a shoulder strap until the AWI or later. Their term more commonly was a Cartouche or Cartouch (various spellings) Pouch in the period and especially Pre AWI, though sometimes/less frequently written as Cartridge Pouch. What we today call a "Belly Box" for Cartridges was called a Cartouche Box in the period. I figured since you are interested in making accurate repro's, you might enjoy the more common period terms.

Oh, another caveat, if you are planning on joining a re-enactor unit, I advise you to ask if they have one or more "unit designated" patterns for their Cartouche Pouch, which some units have.

As you can see from the originals, there were a number of methods used to construct Militia Cartouche Pouches. The type of pouch one had could depend on if one made it for himself, had an itinerant cobbler or journeyman make it, or if it was made by a Saddler or other professional leatherworker. However, even if a professional Saddler (or his apprentice/s) made it as "bespoke work" (custom ordered) there were different levels of how it was made, depending on the customer's desires and "the depth of his purse" or finances.

Probably the simplest and least expensive Militia Cartouche Pouch was made from two pieces of leather sewn together to form the pouch. As you can see from the originals, it may or may not have been turned inside out after sewing them together. Then they sewed on another piece of leather for the flap. A leather or metal button was sewn onto the body of the pouch and a slit cut in the flap to keep it closed. Finally, they stitched a leather or woven strap without a buckle to the back side of the pouch. OK, so why did they do it that way?

Now I want to state I don't have historic documentation to back this up, so this is speculation on my part from looking at originals and things I've read about them. For a long time, it didn't make sense to me that they made the flap from a separate piece of leather they had to stitch to the pouch. Why not make the back of the pouch and the flap from a single cut piece of leather, so no need to stitch a flap on? My guess is that they were more concerned about using the entire hide in the most efficient manner, because leather was even more expensive then than it is today.

The pouch didn't need to be made from the best leather on a hide, which is the area of the back and tops of the shoulders. The belly leather is "stretchy" and that's why you don't make belts, straps or anything you want to hold it's shape from the belly leather. However, the pouch itself could be made from belly leather because all it had to do was hold a wooden block and since it is stretchy, that actually helps you to turn it inside out after wetting it. IOW, a more economical use of the belly leather.

Now, you want the flap to hold its shape because it not only secures the block and cartouches, it is also the primary protection against rain and snow. If stretchy belly leather was used for the flap, it could stretch out of shape and not perform those functions adequately in the field. So they deliberately used leather further away from the belly for the flap and thus had to sew that piece on. BTW, did you notice how a fair number of the original Cartouche Pouches had flaps made of much thicker leather than the leather used for the pouches? When done, this was done purposefully for better protection of the Cartouches inside the pouch and not only from the elements, but also from stray sparks from a soldier near you in formation when firing.

When they used a strap without a buckle, they did not make a "one size fits all, even if it fits most people badly." (Actually that did not become common until much later in the 19th century and unfortunately is how too many repro's are made today.) What they did was sew one end of the strap to the back of the pouch, then the maker had the customer hold the pouch in the position he wanted to wear it. Then the maker ran the too long strap over the customer's shoulder and back down to the pouch. The maker marked it for cutting where it held the pouch in the position the customer preferred and then took it off the customer, cut the end of the strap and sewed it onto the back of the pouch. Viola! The strap then correctly fit the customer.

I sort of wandered into this when I first began making 18th century sword belts in the late 1970's. I found the only way to attach the sword frog or sword and bayonet frog was to have the customer put the belt on, then mark the position on where the frog straps had to be sewn on so they would lay correctly on the person. Decades later when I got my copy of Eric Myall's DVD Part 6. Making a Militia Cartridge Box, I was happy to see I guessed correctly all those years earlier, because that's the way Eric made and mounted the strap.

Still more coming.

Gus
 
OK, what might have been common for at least a semi professional to have added on even a lower quality Cartouche Pouch was an additional strap sewn under the flap with a slot in it for the leather or metal flap button. I found this illustration to show what I mean.

1685130671332.png

I'm not sure if one made the pouch himself, whether he would have made one of these or just went with a slit in the flap. Personally, I don't like to just slit the flap and always use this kind of period enclosure strap.

Still more coming.

Gus
 
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BIG SECOND VOTE FOR KENTUCKY LEATHER AND HIDES!



For folks looking to make cartridge boxes, these must be functional, as well as look-the-part, of course. Check with KLH and see if they have any scrap bundles for sale. These normally contain pieces cur from thick veg tanned hide that area large enough to complete a 24 round cartridge box, or a bayonet scabbard.

IF you do white straps, go with rough side out. It tends to do a better job of holding onto the white coloring agent better than smooth side out.

LD
Dave,

Do you all use White Buff leather for your straps and belts?

If so, is this what you use?
https://theleatherguy.org/collectio...white-buff-for-reenactment-50-sq-ft-full-hide
Back in the late 70's, I used white latigo like the following for such things, because I couldn't find true buff leather. It really is not period correct, as far as I know, but it was as close as I could find back then.
https://www.crazycrow.com/latigo-leather/white-latigo-sides-20-22-sf
Gus
 
I'm currently teaching myself how to make FIW and RevWar military accoutrements (cartridge boxes, belts and straps, and scabbards). I've learned how to cut and drill the wooden ammunition blocks, and have successfully made a couple of mock-up "bags" with straps to learn how to stitch leather using waxed heavy linen thread. My questions though are what modern leathers are the best to use to achieve the most accurate reproductions, and where can I get them? I'm only interested in making militia and Continental "Old Construction" accoutrements. No British or "New Construction" boxes (yet).

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
OK, now it's time to talk a bit on thickness and types of leather for the different parts of a Militia Cartouche pouch. Let's begin by saying this could vary a great deal compared to what was used by the British or British American Military.

Many people don't know that British Ordnance did NOT issue Cartouche Pouches to British Regiments with a "stand of arms." If the Colonel of the Regiment wanted his soldiers to have them, he had to pay for them out of the funds issued to him to equip his regiment. If the Colonel wanted something special, then he usually paid for those things out of his own pocket. For those British and British American Regiments that had slings, Cartouche Pouch Straps, bayonet carriages, and waist belts made of "whitened" Buff leather- you can bet your boots their Colonels paid a pretty penny for the more expensive leather. IOW, such expensive accoutrements were not commonly found in use by Colonial Militia Units, unless they had wealthy members in the Militia or their Colony/State provided them and most didn't. Actually from the original documentation I've seen, if a Colony/State in the FIW up through the early part of the AWI issued anything, it was a Cartouche Box, I.E. Belly Box.

One thing I have noticed when looking at some original leather pieces is they sometimes used a thinner leather than we moderns would expect. Other times they seemed to have used thicker leather. I think some of this had to do with what they had on hand or was easier to get, though I can't prove that.

When I made some Militia Cartouche pouches for us to use in Brush's Independent Company of Militia, I used 5-7 oz vegetable tanned leather because I turned the pouch inside out after sewing. I used the same thickness for the strap which was fine as I used a repro 1 3/4 inch repro period buckle on the strap. (I MUCH prefer to put buckles on straps as it not only allows adjustment for heavy winter clothing, it also allows you to use two lengths of leather for the strap, so you often don't have to different strap material if you buy smaller size pieces for thrift.)

The heaviest leather I would consider using on the body of the pouch would be 7-9 oz veg tanned, though I have seen some pouches made out of 8-10 oz. Now if you want to make the flap with the very thick leather seen on some of the originals in my earlier link, then 8-10 oz or even 10-12 oz would work for that.

In the late 1970's, I made a bunch of bayonet shoulder carriages, belts and sword or sword and bayonet frogs with the 8-10 oz white latigo leather as there was no buff leather available then. I would not recommend white latigo for your pouch, but I wanted to point out shoulder straps made out of that thickness are usually too thick, though you can soften them in the area that goes over the shoulder by bending them back and forth.

Still more coming,
Gus
 
OK, in this post, I'm going to use some pics from the link I provided earlier to show some things. I have to add a caveat that since I've had cataract surgery done to both eyes, sometimes I get things wrong on such pics. So if that happens, I apologize ahead of time.

This first one is a neat example of what I think is a "put together" pouch. I chose the pic mostly because it is fairly uncommon to see an original with a whitened buff leather strap. Though the exposed leather is darkened by age, you can see what is left of the whitening and "white ball" (pipe clay mixed with tallow) that was used to keep it white. However, the buckle is one often found on British Musket Slings, so the strap may have originally been a Musket Sling before they repurposed it for the strap.
1685284656290.png
 
OK, in this post, I'm going to use some pics from the link I provided earlier to show some things. I have to add a caveat that since I've had cataract surgery done to both eyes, sometimes I get things wrong on such pics. So if that happens, I apologize ahead of time.

This first one is a neat example of what I think is a "put together" pouch. I chose the pic mostly because it is fairly uncommon to see an original with a whitened buff leather strap. Though the exposed leather is darkened by age, you can see what is left of the whitening and "white ball" (pipe clay mixed with tallow) that was used to keep it white. However, the buckle is one often found on British Musket Slings, so the strap may have originally been a Musket Sling before they repurposed it for the strap.
View attachment 224391

Well, I messed up loading the pic to add text, so let me just add the following info.

I THINK this Cartouche Pouch was originally a Cartouche Box and someone added a Buff Leather Musket Sling for a strap to make it a Cartouche Pouch. We have plenty of documentation British Light Infantry did this in the AWI, but like the author, I think this was done by an American.

Every British Soldier was issued one White Ball to keep his Buff Leather White and one Black Ball to keep his shoes, cartridge pouch body and other blackened leather black. Since Americans were trained in the manner of British Soldiers, many would have known and used these things when available.

White Ball
https://thequartermastergeneral.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=4314
Black Ball
https://www.etsy.com/listing/820576241/18th-century-black-ball
More coming,
Gus
 
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