round balls don't do well

[SwanShot]

I always tell onlookers at the range that the rifles I build all shoot much better than I do

You can't ask for more than that.

 

[ETipp]

My Renegade likes a .490 ball, .018” pillow ticking patch and 80gr of 3f Goex. A .015” patch had similar results to what you are getting. Now here is where things get interesting. I can only lightly lube one side of the patch with TOW mink oil and the rough side has to be against the ball. When I used more lube and / or lubed both sides of the patch, groups opened up. It likes a spit patch and a dry patch ran between shots because the fowling is pretty great for such a tight patch. I can load a 2nd without a spit patch, but it’s real tight and I didn’t want to deform the ball when seating. But if I clean the barrel with TC’s T-17 solvent and a couple dry patches, I get a flyer on the first shot. Here is my 50yd target. 4 shots. The flyer was a result of cleaning with the T-17 for a new group and I wanted to see if my findings were consistent. They were. The following 3 shots were with a spit patch between shots.
My TC Hawken is proving to like the same right patch, though I haven’t finalized a load. I have only gone up to .015” patch so far in that rifle and get roughly 2” groups at 50. I have a feeling this rifle will want an even tighter patch than the .018” or may prefer a .495” ball with the .018” patch. The .018” ticking patches I’m using are the CVA brand unlubed patches. I’ve read that they actually Mike closer to .022” but I haven’t checked them with my calipers. (Needs new batteries).

That's telling for sure and is something I need to remember. Looks like your rifle likes a little bit of fouling before the accuracy increases.

 

[ETipp]

got to say that I've tried .015, .018, .024, .025 pillow tick, linen, denim, dry patch, totw mink oil, lamb tallow, 2f loads 55gr. to 95 gr. 3f the same loads. spit patch .495 ball, .500 ball with thin patches. with over powder wad and with out, the patches could be used again if I wanted to. A thing not helping is bbl. runout, front sight has to be left of center, half way between the flat edge and bbl center line to make the tight group at the 48 to 50 yd. target.
Now my 54 is a good shooter stays in the black (4-5" group) at 100 yds. It is a 1:60 bbl so it is better with the ball-n-patch. This is my 3d 50 cal 1:48 and I have never had such a rotten ball shooter with that twist, I guess I threw this out to clear my mind with your advice that I am doing things on track and I may have a slug shooter. Casted maxiballs lubed only the bottom groove and will try them soon.
Thanks for listening. As an add on it is a traditions bbl.
coupe

I've owned two different model of TC 1:48" twist ML and neither were good RB shooters. My first ML was a .54 Renegade and it liked patch and RB. It was an older kit rifle. Got another Renegade and it would throw RB all over the place. It was very accurate with Maxi Balls. My other 1:48 TC rifle does not like RB but it too is a great conical shooter.

With that said, perhaps it is possible to get the two conical shooters to shoot RB well, but I finally gave up. And there is no denying that my first Renegade was night and day different from the other Renegade I had, in terms of shooting RB.

Nothing wrong with shooting conical. I have killed my fair share of big game critters with them, including elk. However, all this ole boy really wanted to shoot is RB, thus I recently purchased a slow twist .54 that is suppose to be very accurate with them.

 

[Patched]

Around 1976, I put together a TC 50 cal Hawken kit….1:48 twist shallow rifling….I tried every combination of patch thickness and lube with 490, 495 balls…these combinations worked great with 50 grs of powder or less…no matter how tight the ball fit 50 grains was the speed limit with RBs in this barrel…the maxiball conicals shot consistently acceptable…maybe even tighter groups around 70 grs …3” @50yds and 8” @100 yds.

The literature of the day suggested that the barrels in the kits were rejected barrels for the assembled guns…sounds bogus but I saved up and bought the GRRW 54 cal slow twist Hawken…It still shoots RBs tightly grouped with 120 grs of powder.

 

[ETipp]

Around 1976, I put together a TC 50 cal Hawken kit….1:48 twist shallow rifling….I tried every combination of patch thickness and lube with 490, 495 balls…these combinations worked great with 50 grs of powder or less…no matter how tight the ball fit 50 grains was the speed limit with RBs in this barrel…the maxiball conicals shot consistently acceptable…maybe even tighter groups around 70 grs …3” @50yds and 8” @100 yds.

The literature of the day suggested that the barrels in the kits were rejected barrels for the assembled guns…sounds bogus but I saved up and bought the GRRW 54 cal slow twist Hawken…It still shoots RBs tightly grouped with 120 grs of powder.

The .54 Renegade I had was suppose to have been a kit rifle. I bought it off of a neighbor in CO. That was back in the early 80's. It shot RB very accurately. The newer factory .50 Renegade I had shot minute of barn door with RB but was an accurate Maxi Ball shooter. This leads me to believe that back in the day TC put different rifling in some of their rifles.

 

[bang]

.495 and .024 sounds pretty tight.
Every 50 I have shoots well withe .490 and .010 or .015.
Is the patch of good material?
Have you collected spent patches to examine?
Has someone else shot the rifle?

 

[Relic shooter]

Most modern 'factory built BP firearms have very shallow rifling.
Your 1 in 48" twist barrel will shoot very tight groups but they require using a patch & ball combo that is suited for shallow rifling.
Your accuracy issues will likely be solved by using a ball that measures about .005 smaller than the rifling dia. of your bore & using good quality 'washed & lubed patches that are .008-.010 thick.
TIP; Take your 0-1" mic. to the fabric store & buy a yard of pilliow ticking that measures .008 - 010 thick 'compressed'. Then wash & dry that material at least twice to remove the sizing. Pre-washing makes it easier to load & allows the patch to fully conform to your bore's rifling.
After washing I fold the material to about 8 thicknesses & pre-cut the proper size patches over a 1/2" thick piece poly plastic or hardwood with an Osborn Arch punch, Can cut about a year or more of shooting patches in about 45 min. this way !
After, I thread stacks about 60-100 hundred patches on nylon strings with a needle & tie a knot at the bottom to prevent them from falling off unless pulled off & tie onto my shooting bags strap.
My fav all-time patch lube & bore cleaner formula was given to me about 30 some years ago by an old timer at Friendship, use 1/3 mixtures of Murphys Oil Soap, Hydrogen Peroxide & rubbing alcohol.
I pack a small flip-top squeeze bottle of this elixir in my shooting box & hunting bag, also is a good frizzen & hand cleaner at the range.

 

[Patched]

The .54 Renegade I had was suppose to have been a kit rifle. I bought it off of a neighbor in CO. That was back in the early 80's. It shot RB very accurately. The newer factory .50 Renegade I had shot minute of barn door with RB but was an accurate Maxi Ball shooter. This leads me to believe that back in the day TC put different rifling in some of their rifles.

My 50cal TC shot tight groups at 50 yds…but 50grs of powder was around 1100fps at the muzzle and gave me about 270 foot pounds of energy at 50 yds….
I think Thomson wanted all of us to use their proprietary “maxiball” bullets…cuz these chunks of lead hit with great authority atop 80 grs of powder at 100 yds and most landed towards the center of the paper plate….

but I was newbie fresh and hellbent on roundballs…

 

[Ohio Rusty]

I had a T/C hawken, and it was lousy with round ball. I was lucky to hit a 3 foot sign at any hunting distance. I don't believe that 1 in 48 twist is the best with roundball. I went to conicals in my Hawken and I could easily keep them in a 2 inch circle at 50 yards. I never used round ball in the Hawken after that.
Ohio Rusty ><>

 

[ETipp]

My 50cal TC shot tight groups at 50 yds…but 50grs of powder was around 1100fps at the muzzle and gave me about 270 foot pounds of energy at 50 yds….
I think Thomson wanted all of us to use their proprietary “maxiball” bullets…cuz these chunks of lead hit with great authority atop 80 grs of powder at 100 yds and most landed towards the center of the paper plate….

but I was newbie fresh and hellbent on roundballs…

Yep, same here on all accounts.

 

[ETipp]

I had a T/C hawken, and it was lousy with round ball. I was lucky to hit a 3 foot sign at any hunting distance. I don't believe that 1 in 48 twist is the best with roundball. I went to conicals in my Hawken and I could easily keep them in a 2 inch circle at 50 yards. I never used round ball in the Hawken after that.
Ohio Rusty ><>

Actually, some 1:48 rifles do shoot RB well. From my understanding, its the depth of the rifling that makes the difference. TC rifles have shallow grooves. All I know is the old .54 Renegade I had shot RB well and none of the other TC's I've had since will. However, and as I have stated, TC 1:48 shoot Maxi Balls very well and its to my belief that is what TC was after.

There is no denying that a 1:60 or 1:66 twist are superior RB shooters.

 

[#blackpowderbill]

If you're using old blue jean denim, stop.
Worn out blue jeans the material is not the same thickness or density throughout.
Get yourself some 15 or 18ths material.
A little lube goes a long way.
If you're if you're shooting off a bench @50yards. you should be pretty much shooting somewhere where around an <inch- inch and a half depending on your eyesight.

 

[Harmonica Bob]

I got a .50 that just won't shoot balls. Patches really do look good enough to shoot again. Tried tight patches loose patches 5 kinds of lube. 2f-3f from 50-100 grs. 4" groups at 50 are the best I've managed. It'll put that 360gr Lee Minnie in 1/2" at 50 yards and around an inch at 100..... Wish there was someone near here to play with it some and see if they could get it to shoot a ball. It's just a cheapy beater hunting rifle anyways but I would shoot it a lot more if it would shoot a ball decent.

Back in the day, a guy named Dutch Schoultz ran a small add in Muzzleblasts, on how to shoot the round ball. I followed the destructions, shot a 50yd one hole, 5 shot group. I mailed it to Dutch, and he sent me a daploma. lol, Anyway, all that info is in Dutche's book. For sale on ebay. Black Powder Accuracy by Dutch Schoultz

 

[ETipp]

Back in the day, a guy named Dutch Schoultz ran a small add in Muzzleblasts, on how to shoot the round ball. I followed the destructions, shot a 50yd one hole, 5 shot group. I mailed it to Dutch, and he sent me a daploma. lol, Anyway, all that info is in Dutche's book. For sale on ebay. Black Powder Accuracy by Dutch Schoultz

I think I'm going to try to order that book. Thanks for the information.

 

[Kansas Jake]

My old TC Hawken always seemed to shoot best with a tight hard to load patched round ball. Once started is would slide right down the pipe.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

a 24 thou patch is way to thick. How much force does it take to start the ball? You may well be deforming the ball when you start it down the barrel. a deformed ball might as well come out of a shotgun. There was a time I used a mallet to start my PRBs. found that to be counterproductive. Pressure should be just enough to cause slight ache when smacking the ball, and gone immediately, and certainly not bruise the hand. I found there are normally two or more sweet spots for load and accuracy. I even shot a 54 Investarms barrel that was rifled with a broken cutter, i.e. missing a groove and still won matches.

The other major thing that detracts from accuracy is the sights. Most factory sights are garbage for 100 yd accuracy. I always preferred a nice crisp vertical slit in the rear sight with sharp upper corners to align the front sight with. And a square top on the front sight wide enough to be seen but not to fill the rear sight slot when aiming. ( Thompson center Hawken factory sights were the worst I even encountered., loose from side to side, spring loaded for up and down. and a round ball front sight that would cover and obscure a hundred yard target.

Loading consistency is the next item to check When you pour the powder down the barrel, give the gun, use your palm to give 3 or 4 bumps sideways to settle the powder into the flash channel at the breech. Then start and seat the patched ball

Also check your muzzle crown to make sure the bore is centered (not off center even a a few thousandths) and no dents, nicks etc.

.

 

[Bigpete]

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and maybe make a few people upset. Many people that tell you that they shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards with a muzzleloader are lying. I’ve been shooting matches for 20+ years. Even the best shooters have a great day when all holes are in the black on an NRA target at 100 yards. I can nail 1 inch or maybe clover leaf rounds at 50 most days but I’ve never gotten better than a four inch group at 100 yards. Some matches I’ll have a phenomenal 100 yard target. The next match I’ll be all over the place. That’s with numerous rifles. Wind, sun, humidity, rain. All those affect the outcome. Sometimes we assume our loads just aren’t right and keep experimenting to no success. Sometimes it’s just that we aren’t that good, our sights aren’t up to par, the sun is shining in the wrong direction and let us not forget the wind. The range where I shoot matches is always windy. My eyes aren’t the best either using iron sights. Focus on getting better groups at 50 before you even consider shooting at 100. If your sights hinder you at 50 then they are gonna kill ya at 100. Keep practicing and working on those loads. Let a better shooter have a go with your rifle at 50 also. See what those results are. Sometimes it’s just not the rifle or the load. Sometimes we just have a bad day or aren’t as great of a shooter as those folks claiming scoped bolt action accuracy at 100 with an iron sighted muzzleloader. Do those phenomenal 10x 100 yard 1inch targets exist? Yes. Can they be duplicated on a regular basis? Probably not.

100% this

 

[CapPopper]

Back in the day, a guy named Dutch Schoultz ran a small add in Muzzleblasts, on how to shoot the round ball. I followed the destructions, shot a 50yd one hole, 5 shot group. I mailed it to Dutch, and he sent me a daploma. lol, Anyway, all that info is in Dutche's book. For sale on ebay. Black Powder Accuracy by Dutch Schoultz

Ice got Dutch's book and it works well for my .32. I have managed recently to get acceptable deer accuracy out of round balls in that gun but it will never win any competitions. Same lube I use for my smoothbore (which is very mediocre in the .32) but a patch sort of in between my thin smoothbore patch and my .32 patch. Would've thought the thicker patch would shoot good too but I guess not. It also doesn't like 2f at all with balls. Still 3-4 inches at 100 is the best it can do but I can get minies to shoot to a 1/2 inch at 100.

 

[Ballshooter]

Try a felt OP wad then patched ball.

 

[aussie pete]

Ice got Dutch's book and it works well for my .32. I have managed recently to get acceptable deer accuracy out of round balls in that gun but it will never win any competitions. Same lube I use for my smoothbore (which is very mediocre in the .32) but a patch sort of in between my thin smoothbore patch and my .32 patch. Would've thought the thicker patch would shoot good too but I guess not. It also doesn't like 2f at all with balls. Still 3-4 inches at 100 is the best it can do but I can get minies to shoot to a 1/2 inch at 100.

I can shoot one minie at 100m and get a .577 inch group at best !

Pete