What type of corn meal can i use? Also a question about chainfire. /Paper cartridges

[Crypt0manic]

Hello! I just recetly got lee's .456 conical bullet mold and made some bullets. My guns are production of 1860s so they are chambered larger then piettas and uberti etc...i don't really shave a ring with my conicals but i get to push alot to get them in. That gun is supposed to be .457 and the bullet .456. if i lube the bullet do you think it's safe to shoot without any grease in front of it? I mentioned i get to push pretty much for them to get into the chambers even tho they don't leave a ring.


Also i have so far been using corn meal to fill out the air gap etc while making my cartridges with round balls. The corn meal i'm using is like fine powder. I heard i'm supposed to use corn meal with larger grains as the black powder instead of powder form of corn meal? Is it dangerous to use it like fine powder? Don't want to blow up the guns...but so far it has been working fine and i haven't been blowing myself up at least with the round balls. Haven't tried with the conicals yet.


Here is a cartridge i just made with fine/powder form of corn meal
25 grains of black powder
And the rest is corn meal. What's the process really when there is fine powder in chambers like that? More pressure? Is it safe?

Also with a conical like this if i use no wad and no corn meal at all, wouldn't the holy black still get compressed enough so that it leaves no air gaps with 25 grains?

 

[maillemaker]

Historically, the guns were shot with essentially full chambers of black powder and a sometimes-lubricated bullet. The bullet you are showing has grooves for lubrication. Not all revolver bullets had this. For example, the Walker and Dragoon bullets had no grease grooves.

The idea of smearing lube over the top of the bullets is a somewhat modern invention. I do believe I recall reading that Robert E. Lee's revolver had wax over the top of the bullets, probably as a weatherproofing mechanism when in the field.

N-SSA competition requires lubricant over the bullets. The idea is to help prevent a chain fire. I don't think it really helps much with regards to chain fires - this is mostly prevented by tight-fitting bullets in the chambers. However, the lube over the bullets does help keep the fouling soft, both in the bore and on the cylinder axle (arbor), and it does not harm to do it.

Many competition shooters will use a filler between the powder and the bullet. Mostly this is so that when the bullet is seated and bottoms out, you want the nose of the bullet to be as close to flush with the chamber face as possible. The logic is, if you seat the bullet deeply down into the chamber, a couple of things can happen:

• Some chambers are not reamed a constant diameter all the way down. Some taper. As such, if you drive a bullet deep into the chamber, you may end up swaging it down to a diameter smaller than your bore diameter. That would be bad for accuracy.
• Some claim that by seating the bullet deeply, far away from the barrel, on firing, the bullet has more time to build up velocity before it hits the rifling, which may let it strip rather than engage. By starting the bullet off close to the rifling, it will be going slower when it hits the rifling.

Some people use Cream of Wheat for a filler. Some people use cornmeal. I think cornmeal is compressible and thus more forgiving if you get a little too much in there. I don't think the granulation of your filler matters.

Of course fillers is a modern target shooting thing. It may help you get better accuracy.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Historically, the guns were shot with essentially full chambers of black powder and a sometimes-lubricated bullet. The bullet you are showing has grooves for lubrication. Not all revolver bullets had this. For example, the Walker and Dragoon bullets had no grease grooves.

The idea of smearing lube over the top of the bullets is a somewhat modern invention. I do believe I recall reading that Robert E. Lee's revolver had wax over the top of the bullets, probably as a weatherproofing mechanism when in the field.

N-SSA competition requires lubricant over the bullets. The idea is to help prevent a chain fire. I don't think it really helps much with regards to chain fires - this is mostly prevented by tight-fitting bullets in the chambers. However, the lube over the bullets does help keep the fouling soft, both in the bore and on the cylinder axle (arbor), and it does not harm to do it.

Many competition shooters will use a filler between the powder and the bullet. Mostly this is so that when the bullet is seated and bottoms out, you want the nose of the bullet to be as close to flush with the chamber face as possible. The logic is, if you seat the bullet deeply down into the chamber, a couple of things can happen:

• Some chambers are not reamed a constant diameter all the way down. Some taper. As such, if you drive a bullet deep into the chamber, you may end up swaging it down to a diameter smaller than your bore diameter. That would be bad for accuracy.
• Some claim that by seating the bullet deeply, far away from the barrel, on firing, the bullet has more time to build up velocity before it hits the rifling, which may let it strip rather than engage. By starting the bullet off close to the rifling, it will be going slower when it hits the rifling.

Some people use Cream of Wheat for a filler. Some people use cornmeal. I think cornmeal is compressible and thus more forgiving if you get a little too much in there. I don't think the granulation of your filler matters.

Of course fillers is a modern target shooting thing. It may help you get better accuracy.

I use white cornmeal. I put in the powder charge and with a dipper fill the rest of the chamber slightly overfilled with cornmeal. Go to the next chamber and so on. Then I tilt the revolver to allow the excess cornmeal to fall free of the revolver when the cylinder is rotated to strike it level. Then I place a roundball over the meal, and seat it so it is slightly below the chamber mouth, then apply lubricant.

 

[bang]

I did a blind test with a pair of Pietta 1858s, 10 spare cylinders. 5 with corn meal to put ball at cylinder face, 5 without. Placed cylinders caps up so I didn't know which I was getting. There was zero difference in accuracy.
Chain fire can happen from either end but primarily happens when hot gas gets in a poorly fitting cap.
Lube on top of projectiles can highly deter chain from front and even though a tad messy helps stop leading.
I use about 70% wax to 30% veggie oil to make a thick but sticky lube. IMHO it soots the fouling and makes it easy to remove by next shot.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

I did a blind test with a pair of Pietta 1858s, 10 spare cylinders. 5 with corn meal to put ball at cylinder face, 5 without. Placed cylinders caps up so I didn't know which I was getting. There was zero difference in accuracy.
Chain fire can happen from either end but primarily happens when hot gas gets in a poorly fitting cap.
Lube on top of projectiles can highly deter chain from front and even though a tad messy helps stop leading.
I use about 70% wax to 30% veggie oil to make a thick but sticky lube. IMHO it soots the fouling and makes it easy to remove by next shot.

What was your powder charge for your test?

 

[Crypt0manic]

Historically, the guns were shot with essentially full chambers of black powder and a sometimes-lubricated bullet. The bullet you are showing has grooves for lubrication. Not all revolver bullets had this. For example, the Walker and Dragoon bullets had no grease grooves.

The idea of smearing lube over the top of the bullets is a somewhat modern invention. I do believe I recall reading that Robert E. Lee's revolver had wax over the top of the bullets, probably as a weatherproofing mechanism when in the field.

N-SSA competition requires lubricant over the bullets. The idea is to help prevent a chain fire. I don't think it really helps much with regards to chain fires - this is mostly prevented by tight-fitting bullets in the chambers. However, the lube over the bullets does help keep the fouling soft, both in the bore and on the cylinder axle (arbor), and it does not harm to do it.

Many competition shooters will use a filler between the powder and the bullet. Mostly this is so that when the bullet is seated and bottoms out, you want the nose of the bullet to be as close to flush with the chamber face as possible. The logic is, if you seat the bullet deeply down into the chamber, a couple of things can happen:

• Some chambers are not reamed a constant diameter all the way down. Some taper. As such, if you drive a bullet deep into the chamber, you may end up swaging it down to a diameter smaller than your bore diameter. That would be bad for accuracy.
• Some claim that by seating the bullet deeply, far away from the barrel, on firing, the bullet has more time to build up velocity before it hits the rifling, which may let it strip rather than engage. By starting the bullet off close to the rifling, it will be going slower when it hits the rifling.

Some people use Cream of Wheat for a filler. Some people use cornmeal. I think cornmeal is compressible and thus more forgiving if you get a little too much in there. I don't think the granulation of your filler matters.

Of course fillers is a modern target shooting thing. It may help you get better accuracy.

Thank you! That was lots of useful information to take in. I guess i shouldn't worry for not getting a lead ring since it still takes some pressure getting down the bullet into the chambers.


And i was worried for the corn meal but i will just keep using it the way i do with round balls. What's actually the minimal load you can put in the chambers without getting a airgap with these conicals? It's kinda hard to see how deep the loading lever on these guns reaches inside the chambers.


I wanted the erasgone molds instead of lee but couldn't get them over here in sweden. I will try again later. So far guess lee's conicals might work fine on at least one of my guns. They are old so the chambers on the second one are larger then .457 i think....so on that one i will have to use grease i guess.

 

[Crypt0manic]

Ooh interesting. What type of wax do you use? I was planing to get some crisco and beewax. Beewax seems hard to get tho. Not sure what more to use @bang

 

[Stantheman86]

The original charge for the Johnston &Dow bullet and nitrate cartridge was 24 grains , it varied a little based on the contractor but charges were lighter to mitigate fouling. I don't think you need cornmeal in there

If the bullet has lube grooves, it will carry the lube down the bore like a Minie ball, and keep the accumulation of fouling in the bore down plus keep the fouling in the chambers soft so you're not having to fight the next 6 rounds down crusty chambers

Some may blow out the b/c gap but not as much as if you top the chambers with lube

Lubing over the chambers is in my opinion a re-enactorism from the 60's when they fired blanks. And it just continued into Skirmish shooting live fire . I sometimes smear Crisco over the chambers and it does keep the gun running longer. It does nothing for chain fires . A tight bullet or ball and properly fitted caps prevents chain fires.

The corn meal thing may, if you're a highly skilled match shooter competing with other highly skilled match shooters, make your groups fractional inches tighter . I'm sure it's been proven which is why it's done by a lot of guys who win medals , etc but for Joe Average like me , I just use enough powder to allow the ball to seat on it, like 20 grains or so or a cylinder loader so I can use 15 in my .36's I set up for bullseye shooting. The corn meal is something I don't bother with because I'm usually by myself punching paper but I might try it just because people do it, and I want to see if it works.

 

[Crypt0manic]

The original charge for the Johnston &Dow bullet and nitrate cartridge was 24 grains , it varied a little based on the contractor but charges were lighter to mitigate fouling. I don't think you need cornmeal in there

If the bullet has lube grooves, it will carry the lube down the bore like a Minie ball, and keep the accumulation of fouling in the bore down plus keep the fouling in the chambers soft so you're not having to fight the next 6 rounds down crusty chambers

Some may blow out the b/c gap but not as much as if you top the chambers with lube

Lubing over the chambers is in my opinion a re-enactorism from the 60's when they fired blanks. And it just continued into Skirmish shooting live fire . I sometimes smear Crisco over the chambers and it does keep the gun running longer. It does nothing for chain fires . A tight bullet or ball and properly fitted caps prevents chain fires.

The corn meal thing may, if you're a highly skilled match shooter competing with other highly skilled match shooters, make your groups fractional inches tighter . I'm sure it's been proven which is why it's done by a lot of guys who win medals , etc but for Joe Average like me , I just use enough powder to allow the ball to seat on it, like 20 grains or so or a cylinder loader so I can use 15 in my .36's I set up for bullseye shooting. The corn meal is something I don't bother with because I'm usually by myself punching paper but I might try it just because people do it, and I want to see if it works.

Okay that was helpful thank you. When there is some corn meal in front of the powder doesn't that create more pressure? Does that affect velocity in any ways?

i'm just shooting paper targets alone by myself so i don't plan winning any medals. I haven't been thinking much about that but i really haven't noticed any difference in accuracy with or without corn meal. My guns shoot too high tho because they are set to 120 meters.....and i usually do 30 grains with a round ball and 25 with conicals because i guess that's what they were using back in days in civil war etc so guess that's a good load for these guns from 1860's.

 

[M. De Land]

Okay that was helpful thank you. When there is some corn meal in front of the powder doesn't that create more pressure? Does that affect velocity in any ways?

i'm just shooting paper targets alone by myself so i don't plan winning any medals. I haven't been thinking much about that but i really haven't noticed any difference in accuracy with or without corn meal. My guns shoot too high tho because they are set to 120 meters.....and i usually do 30 grains with a round ball and 25 with conicals because i guess that's what they were using back in days in civil war etc so guess that's a good load for these guns from 1860's.

Cream of wheat is a far better filler in my experience than is corn meal as it doesn't have the oil in it and it compresses better with no spring back as does corn meal.

 

[Rebel jim]

My .44 I use 25 grains of pyrodex and 10 grains of Cream of Wheat. And a .451 round ball.
As I shoot I use a hacksaw blade and a triangle file until I get point of aim.
I have shot with and without the Cream of Wheat, and I would have to say that with the Cream of Wheat is a better group than without.

 

[Crypt0manic]

Cream of wheat is a far better filler in my experience than is corn meal as it doesn't have the oil in it and it compresses better with no spring back as does corn meal.

What does the oil do? I will try it out thank you!

 

[Crypt0manic]

Does anyone have advices for lubrication except beewax? Could i use only crisco for example without beewax? What more alternatives do i have?

 

[Eutycus]

Heck,you can even use the microwaveable instant kind of cornmeal or cream of wheat. I think some folks even use grits.

 

[M. De Land]

What does the oil do? I will try it out thank you!

I've had oil compress out of corn meal when loading the ball. Cream of wheat is bone dry and no oil compresses out to foul/contaminate the powder.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Does anyone have advices for lubrication except beewax? Could i use only crisco for example without beewax? What more alternatives do i have?

Beeswax stiffens the mixture so it has less of a tendency to run. Many NSSA shooters mixed Crisco with beeswax which worked very well.

 

[nick_1]

Every single one of you who claims that lube over the Ball doesn't stop chain fires is wrong. I absolutely had chain fires with maximum loads and no grease. Same loads with grease and no chain fires. That being said 25g in a .44 with tight fitting ball and you won't have chain fires regardless of grease or no grease. I like bore butter. Cleaning is easier.

 

[bang]

What was your powder charge for your test?

22 grains pyrodex P

 

[Crypt0manic]

Every single one of you who claims that lube over the Ball doesn't stop chain fires is wrong. I absolutely had chain fires with maximum loads and no grease. Same loads with grease and no chain fires. That being said 25g in a .44 with tight fitting ball and you won't have chain fires regardless of grease or no grease. I like bore butter. Cleaning is easier.

So it's safe shooting with a lubed tight fitting ball or conical without any grease or anything in front of the bullet?

Why did you have the chain fires? No lube at all?

 

[Eras Gone]

Thank you! That was lots of useful information to take in. I guess i shouldn't worry for not getting a lead ring since it still takes some pressure getting down the bullet into the chambers.


And i was worried for the corn meal but i will just keep using it the way i do with round balls. What's actually the minimal load you can put in the chambers without getting a airgap with these conicals? It's kinda hard to see how deep the loading lever on these guns reaches inside the chambers.


I wanted the erasgone molds instead of lee but couldn't get them over here in sweden. I will try again later. So far guess lee's conicals might work fine on at least one of my guns. They are old so the chambers on the second one are larger then .457 i think....so on that one i will have to use grease i guess.

I send molds to Sweden quite frequently. Contact me directly via email and We can discuss if you would like. Thanks! Erasgonebullets@ gmail.com