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Non-Toxic Roundballs?

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Our current governor clearly stated that she does not need facts to enact laws.
NYC controls the state. They own half of the county that starts a mile down the road from me.
There isn't a politician alive that relate to, or cares about their citizens. Power & money is their agenda, we the people just get in the way, unless they need slaves!! Beautiful world without that type of scum!
 

centershot Please make sure of subject before making comments !​


One of the sporting community’s primary concerns was a bill that would have prohibited the use of lead ammunition on wildlife management areas, state forests, forest preserves, state parks or any other state-owned land that is open for hunting, and on land contributing surface water to the New York city water supply.

Assembly Bill A5728​


2021-2022 Legislative Session
Prohibits the use of lead ammunition in the taking of wildlife on state-owned land and on land contributing surface water to the New York city water supply

The Assembly bill — A05728 — was brought to the floor and passed by a vote of 98 to 49. However, the companion Senate Bill — S05058 — failed to make it to the floor for a vote. The backdrop to the activity in the Legislature was a report of the New York State Lead Ammunition Working Group dated April 2022, commissioned by the Department of Environmental Conservation, titled “Minimizing Risks to Wildlife and People From Lead Hunting Ammunition.”

Bill for banning lead, SO5058, DID NOT PASS

Senate Bill S5058​


2021-2022 Legislative Session
Prohibits the use of lead ammunition in the taking of wildlife on state-owned land and on land contributing surface water to the New York city water supply


Archer 75,
I thank you for that information. My source for my posted info was a friend of mine who is a DEC Hunter Ed.. instructor. I thought I could take his word on a topic such as this. It seems I can't, I'll deal with that later. My apologies to the forum for the misinformation in my post!
 
Archer 75,
I thank you for that information. My source for my posted info was a friend of mine who is a DEC Hunter Ed.. instructor. I thought I could take his word on a topic such as this. It seems I can't, I'll deal with that later. My apologies to the forum for the misinformation in my post!
No apology necessary. That issue probably needed to be clarified, and it was. Any snide remarks, I believe were ignored, thankfully.
 
Bismuth is very, very expensive. Lead is cheap
Yes it is. However when lead is banned in your area what else you gonna do? Realistically pure tin (also stupid expensive) and bismuth are the only 2 non toxics the home caster can deal with. And I've never seen any documentation from the FEDs that pure tin ammo is officially allowed in non-tox hunt areas.
 
Bismuth or tin will cast large. Zinc will poison your lead pot and mold making it useless for lead. Zink will also ruin all the range scrap for casing purposes. For all of these you will need a very thin patch. OR, a new mold. ITX balls that are commercially sold are oversized and require a thin patch and are stupid hard to load. Any ML rifle bullet metal need to be as soft as pure lead to work right. Only pure lead is that soft. I suppose one could use sabots but not with your current rifle.

All this foolishness is over the idea that lead ML balls present a hazard. They don't. Really.... IF that were true the civil war battlefields would be a toxic nightmare, they are not. IF it were true swallowing a birdshot pellet would dose you with lead, it does not. It has nothing to do with provable scientific evidence. It is agenda driven. Some of the backers are simply stooges. Some know better, but are ideologs. Please understand these people have a much different vision for the future than we have. They are bullies and control freaks. It is obvious that the people proposing these rules hate hunting and hunters they want to stop all hunting. They are relentless.
 
Bismuth or tin will cast large. Zinc will poison your lead pot and mold making it useless for lead. Zink will also ruin all the range scrap for casing purposes. For all of these you will need a very thin patch. OR, a new mold. ITX balls that are commercially sold are oversized and require a thin patch and are stupid hard to load. Any ML rifle bullet metal need to be as soft as pure lead to work right. Only pure lead is that soft. I suppose one could use sabots but not with your current rifle.

All this foolishness is over the idea that lead ML balls present a hazard. They don't. Really.... IF that were true the civil war battlefields would be a toxic nightmare, they are not. IF it were true swallowing a birdshot pellet would dose you with lead, it does not. It has nothing to do with provable scientific evidence. It is agenda driven. Some of the backers are simply stooges. Some know better, but are ideologs. Please understand these people have a much different vision for the future than we have. They are bullies and control freaks. It is obvious that the people proposing these rules hate hunting and hunters they want to stop all hunting. They are relentless.
That is the most factual reading of the day!! YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD WITH A SLEDGE HAMMER!! THANK YOU SIR!!
 
I bought a large roll of 95/5 solder. That's tin and antimony. It was at an estate sale and I paid a couple off bucks for it. Maybe I'll cast a few ball out of it and see what happens, unless someone else already has and can give a report from actual experience.
 
I have a question about lead shot. What about those studies where ducks have died from eating lead shot? As they’ve done post Mortem examinations and found extremely high lead levels in their systems.
To my understanding that’s why you can only hunt ducks with steel shot or lead substitute. They’ve also found eagles and other Raptors that have died from lead poisoning by eating rabbits another small game that Have been taken with lead then then as their remains are eaten the pellets are ingested causing poisoning.

So I could understand needing lead substitute for a shot if you’re hunting ducks.
I don’t understand why they are calling for a lead substitute for any lead projectile. Seems to me there are many other things that are creating damage or polluting Then lead projectiles.
 
Bismuth or tin will cast large. Zinc will poison your lead pot and mold making it useless for lead. Zink will also ruin all the range scrap for casing purposes. For all of these you will need a very thin patch. OR, a new mold. ITX balls that are commercially sold are oversized and require a thin patch and are stupid hard to load. Any ML rifle bullet metal need to be as soft as pure lead to work right. Only pure lead is that soft. I suppose one could use sabots but not with your current rifle.

All this foolishness is over the idea that lead ML balls present a hazard. They don't. Really.... IF that were true the civil war battlefields would be a toxic nightmare, they are not. IF it were true swallowing a birdshot pellet would dose you with lead, it does not. It has nothing to do with provable scientific evidence. It is agenda driven. Some of the backers are simply stooges. Some know better, but are ideologs. Please understand these people have a much different vision for the future than we have. They are bullies and control freaks. It is obvious that the people proposing these rules hate hunting and hunters they want to stop all hunting. They are relentless.
While I don't disagree with anything you said, you are not taking into account the fact that the entire state of California has a ban on lead hunting ammo. The entire USA has a ban on lead for waterfowl. There are many, MANY, state or FED wildlife areas that one can legally hunt, but not with lead ammo. Must be non-tox.

It's easy to say that one should thumb their nose at such laws. Are you willing to have the DNR or USFW seize your gun, truck that you drove to the hunting spot, and fine you quite large sums of money for doing nothing other than using lead in a non-tox area?

The hunting world howled when the FED's banned lead for waterfowl. Hunters and the shooting industry figured out a solution in time. That involves steel shot (actually a soft iron, not steel), bismuth/tin alloy, and the various tungsten alloys. The same is happening with centerfire rifle cartridges for hunting. Copper alloys and gilding metal. We will figure out our own solution for muzzleloading.

I strongly disagree, vehemently disagree, with the push to ban lead shot/balls/bullets. It makes me very angry as I see it for what it really is. It is based on nonsense science and flawed research. It is being used to, like you said, ban hunting. Or at the very least make it inconvenient and too costly for most folks. I also believe that hunters and especially TRADITIONAL muzzleloader hunters are too small of a group to stop what is coming. We cannot stick our heads in the sand pretending it won't happen. Because when it does eventually happen everywhere for all shooting, we need to have a non-tox option readily available for use.

The BPI ITX balls you referenced are a tungsten alloy. Yes they are very hard. However they are the only non-tox roundball commercially made.

As I said earlier in a previous post, and you said it as well, bismuth and tin expand when they cool. It may in fact require a slightly smaller mold. If you were, for example, using a .495" lead ball in the past, you may need a .490" mold for bismuth/tin. But before we jump on the tin bandwagon, remember it is not approved by itself (100% tin projectiles) for non-tox ammo. Unless something has drastically changed in the last 6 months or so. Tin is used to create alloys with other non-tox materials/metals like bismuth. Typically the bismuth used in shooting is 95% bismuth and 5%tin give or take. That alloy IS approved EVERYWHERE in the USA as a non-tox projectile. Now I'm sure if someone submitted 100% tin projectiles for certification to the USFW it would likely be approved. But that costs money and tin is silly expensive.

While you are certainly free to disagree with me, I think we as traditional muzzleloaders really need to quietly work to find solutions to the impending lead ban. It's coming and we are too small of a group to stop it. We might slow it down some, but I really don't think we can stop it. And that in and of itself angers me to no end. But I refuse to go quietly into the night. I will find a non-tox alternative that works for me before I give up shooting and hunting.
 
I bought a large roll of 95/5 solder. That's tin and antimony. It was at an estate sale and I paid a couple off bucks for it. Maybe I'll cast a few ball out of it and see what happens, unless someone else already has and can give a report from actual experience.
You might want to check with the USFW to see if that alloy is approved for non-tox use before you venture out into a non-tox zone and meet up with a not so friendly 'fish cop'.
 
I have a question about lead shot. What about those studies where ducks have died from eating lead shot? As they’ve done post Mortem examinations and found extremely high lead levels in their systems.
To my understanding that’s why you can only hunt ducks with steel shot or lead substitute. They’ve also found eagles and other Raptors that have died from lead poisoning by eating rabbits another small game that Have been taken with lead then then as their remains are eaten the pellets are ingested causing poisoning.

So I could understand needing lead substitute for a shot if you’re hunting ducks.
I don’t understand why they are calling for a lead substitute for any lead projectile. Seems to me there are many other things that are creating damage or polluting Then lead projectiles.
Those studies were based on flawed data. Yes I am serious.
 
You might want to check with the USFW to see if that alloy is approved for non-tox use before you venture out into a non-tox zone and meet up with a not so friendly 'fish cop'.
That's a good thought. I'm an old school lead lover though at least for now I don't have any reason to use anything else. Other than for curiosity to see how wild the solder balls shoot. Compared to my lead balls that weigh 175 gr. and cast .488 the solder balls weigh 125 gr and cast .490. They are also hard, BHN 28-30 on my LBT tester.

Also, I agree with what you said in reply to Scota. However, at 74 years old I'm thinking that I won't last long enough to see a complete lead ban. It will be something for the younger generation of shooters to deal with and the number of muzzleloader shooters will be much smaller than it is now so they will have even less influence.
 
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@The Crisco Kid

I hope we never see a lead ban but I fear that is wishful thinking. I'm not surprised your solder balls casted the way they did due to the antimony content. I will be very interested in hearing how they load and shoot.

Edit - With the same powder charge you obviously will see a higher velocity with 50 gr less ball weight, however, muzzle energy will likely be a wash simply due to the higher velocity. It will screw up any sight settings you currently have on that rifle.
 
It won't screw up the sight settings, I'll leave them as they are. I just want to see how they group, or maybe pattern will be a better description, and the shooting will be close range. My rifle likes 85 grain FF so I'll cut the charge to 60 for the solder balls. All this is in the interest of science since I don't have anything better to do at the time.
 
So how many eagles, hawks, geese & ducks die every year when struck by the wind turbine blades? I would bet it is more than died by lead poisoning. Maybe we should ban the wind generating windmills too!
Amen x infinity!

And I would argue more have died by poor hits from steel shot than ever died by lead shot ingested. Steel shot is a very poor substitute for lead, blackpowder or modern. Bismuth and tungsten are as good as lead or better in the case of some tungsten alloys
 
This scare about lead killing off eagles and such makes no sense. DDT was the culprit and notice how their population has boomed when it was banned and we are still using lead. Megatons of lead have been fired in the past 400 years with no apparent ill effect.

Climate change/warming is a clear and present danger for the Earth. In the past those changes took place over millions of years not the 2-3 hundred we're now looking at. Many plants, wildlife and even much of humanity can't adapt to that. It's not just us but the entire planet that will either fix this or die with it. Parts of the Earth will become hot enough they will be almost unlivable. Where I live the total snowfall for winter has dropped each year of the last five and is less than half of what it was just 5 years ago.
 
This scare about lead killing off eagles and such makes no sense. DDT was the culprit and notice how their population has boomed when it was banned and we are still using lead. Megatons of lead have been fired in the past 400 years with no apparent ill effect.

Climate change/warming is a clear and present danger for the Earth. In the past those changes took place over millions of years not the 2-3 hundred we're now looking at. Many plants, wildlife and even much of humanity can't adapt to that. It's not just us but the entire planet that will either fix this or die with it. Parts of the Earth will become hot enough they will be almost unlivable. Where I live the total snowfall for winter has dropped each year of the last five and is less than half of what it was just 5 years ago.
DDT is still legal for use elsewhere just not in the USA. Several countries still use it.
 

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