Holland and Holland Identification

[Gordoncourtney]

Sad but you brought it on yourself, we are all just and upright citizens in a modern society, sure our conversations of enthusiasms can get heavy , we can disagree like gentlemen, we are here to protect the vulnerable, and find the truth, a strong band of brothers I can only wish you well and with time this rude matter will pass

As always “ happy to meet , sorry to part ? But happy to meet again”. I wish you well

 

[Rudyard]

This theme has become a witch hunt with Mr know all Courtney persistantly pouring out utter rubbish .Expert? More idiot & a discredit to this forum. His is the 'rude matter' that should part . Mr Boots dosnt need FME's( Five minet Experts) The photos don't lie and Ile wager if Hollands where involved there would be records they hold .
Rudyard

 

[Brokennock]

Ever consider you might be wrong sir?

Never. And not just Mr. Courtney. I think it is buried somewhere in the endless list of forum rules that, "one not only shall never admit one is might be wrong, though shalt not ever concede that someone else might have a point or could possibly be right, if their dogma is even so much as worded differently than yours."

Welcome to, "stupid forum tricks."

 

[FlinterNick]

I knew that Holland and Holland had made a long land Bess in limited quantity, but there’s no way it’s worth more than 1,000 bucks. Its a very poor quality reproduction in terms of authenticity.

 

[denster]

As an interesting sidenote I see that the add on gunbroker now has in bold letters that the piece was authenticated by Holland & Holland in Texas. A simple Google search showed an image of an identical piece at a H&H presentation at the gunroom in NYC.

 

[GoodRabbitPilgrim]

As an interesting sidenote I see that the add on gunbroker now has in bold letters that the piece was authenticated by Holland & Holland in Texas. A simple Google search showed an image of an identical piece at a H&H presentation at the gunroom in NYC.

You couldn't possibly be suggesting that the forum experts who derided the poor guy that came on for simple advice were wrong?

The same guys that trash and tear apart anything not a custom PC HC gun of a select few acceptable brands or built by certain gunsmiths are unable to distinguish between a H&H gun and an Indian replica?

Can't make this stuff up.

 

[Rudyard]

I knew that Holland and Holland had made a long land Bess in limited quantity, but there’s no way it’s worth more than 1,000 bucks. Its a very poor quality reproduction in terms of authenticity.

Aside of authenticity terms the Quality is fine whatever the musket is or lacks its right as nine pence & I said so .Since a Petersoli is up there I cant see a Holland limited run isn't worth more than most , Good Rabbit makes a good point not haveing examined one I cant further comment but Hollands are a proper firm I would be supprized if the function isn't good even it the piece was only meant to appeal to patriotic Americans & not museums or dedicated to authenticity persons Like Dave interprets so well for.
Rudyard

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Rudyard By the words you have placed before us you have destroyed any reputation you may or may not of had. I have had one of theses almost identical guns , you have put nothing forward in words , description of photos of its Part or parts to support this H&H is genuine I have tried to provide clues suggestions by descriptions and photos so other members can decide on its providence Two things are in this string the reputation of Boots and his shop and secondly the providence of the gun

There is nothing wrong with the gun or it’s makers it’s just a fair copy for those who cannot afford the real thing. The crime is selling it as an original and now with fraudulent providence I read Boots wants the providence from us that it is the genuine article and I guess he won’t get it

I received an email about your reputation

“Either a very thin skin or he's trying a provoke a reaction that he can then quote to cause trouble.”

You have nothing to put forward, you are angry , so you result in trying to destroy another member? shall we say by nastiness probably due to poor education and your upbringing.


. Note Gordon Courtney is my handle as I liked the Scottish French connection. Quite Frankly Rudyard as to your comments “ I really do not give a dam”.

 

[Brokennock]

due to poor education

on its providence

secondly the providence of the gun

Ummm,
Unless the gun and the shop has some Christian religious connection and value, I think the word you were looking for is,
Provenance


Not, providence


So much for "education."

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I stand corrected ha ha very good. Like

 

[tnlonghunter]

1. I'm pretty sure the OP's question has been answered - ad nauseum.

2. Plenty of character assassination going on. Where character assassination in a post isn't explicitly intended, plenty of posts have been either implied or written in such a way that it's super easy to read then that way.

3. We've very likely managed to alienate a new member in the process. Yes, there have been lots of scammers. I got taken by one of them myself. It's still worth being civil and kind to one another in writing (whatever our internal monologue might say). I've lost track of thr number of times I've read on this forum that the ML community is one of the most welcoming of new shooters. Informative as this thread has been, it also turned out to not be in welcoming spirit.

 

[bootsmotors]

As denster has posted, we placed a call to H&H in Texas and the curator there confirmed it's genuine and they have number one in the showroom. Now I'm sure no one here is going to believe that. Rudyard got it right from the beginning. And yes, you've alienated a new member. Also add thin skinned to the endless string of things I've been called and accused of. I'll go now since the self-professed experts have made it clear that I'm not welcome. Best wishes to all.

 

[TFoley]

If it was made by H&H it would have London proof marks on the barrel .As an aside Holland and Holland are now owned by Beretta .

If you can prove to me that this appalling piece of tat was made by Holland & Holland, then I will eat my keyboard, in public, with a sauce of your choice.

It is not known when Harris Holland started his own manufacturing, but it is estimated to be in the 1850s - by that time the British military had long parted ways with the flintlock musket, and were at the beginning of adopting the Pattern 53 rifled musket made in Royal small Arms Factory at Enfield Lock in North London.

Furthermore, if you can find any proof that they made a flintlock musket for the common soldier, the promise I made on line 1 will equally apply.

 

[TFoley]

Haggis, a new word, at least to me so I had to go find out about the word.

"a Scottish dish consisting of a sheep's or calf's offal mixed with suet, oatmeal, and seasoning and boiled in a bag, traditionally one made from the animal's stomach."

Don't think so.

Definitely NOT kosher.

 

[TFoley]

Fake alert did ring when I first saw the pic`s.
1-Holland & Holland newer did flintlocks.
2-the pictures reveals poor craftsmanship. Not a Holland & Holland virtue, they make first class stuff.

This seem like a India made modern replica. They are shoot able, but newer known to be the best shooters. Value might be around $600 not $6000 as suggested.

I sincerely hope to not have offended anyone...!

The Royal families and heads of state of the Free World join the line of buyers for Holland & Holland's guns and rifles.

 

[TFoley]

http://thetrad.blogspot.com/2011/05/gun-room-holland-holland.html
Quote - 'My favorite of the night was one of 10 replicas of the English Brown Bess. This musket was standard issue to the British soldier during the American Revolution or, what H&H might call, "The American War for Independence." End Quote.

 

[FlinterNick]

http://thetrad.blogspot.com/2011/05/gun-room-holland-holland.html
Quote - 'My favorite of the night was one of 10 replicas of the English Brown Bess. This musket was standard issue to the British soldier during the American Revolution or, what H&H might call, "The American War for Independence." End Quote.

I still stand by my original statement, that a holland and holland bess isn’t worth more than 1,000 $. Its worth no more than a Miroku or used pedersoli, i wouldn’t even put it up there with a really good coach harness Brown Bess which are valued around $1,500-2,000 in really nice condition.

As far as the lock goes, I know nothing about it being Indian made, i wasn’t aware that there were any Indian gunmakers in the 1970’s, but anything is possible with almost 30% of British imports (mostly materials and textiles) coming from India.

To me at first glance the lock looks ‘sturdy’ and is shapped much better than say a loyalist arms bess lock. But its authenticity is terrible. The markings of course are the markings and shape of the lock plate, cock and pan are off considerably.

I mean you could customize this gun into a nice french and Indian war musket.

If it were me, I wouldn’t buy this musket, i would just as soon buy part out a kit and make a stock.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I still stand by my original statement, that a holland and holland bess isn’t worth more than 1,000 $. Its worth no more than a Miroku or used pedersoli, i wouldn’t even put it up there with a really good coach harness Brown Bess which are valued around $1,500-2,000 in really nice condition.

As far as the lock goes, I know nothing about it being Indian made, i wasn’t aware that there were any Indian gunmakers in the 1970’s, but anything is possible with almost 30% of British imports (mostly materials and textiles) coming from India.

To me at first glance the lock looks ‘sturdy’ and is shapped much better than say a loyalist arms bess lock. But its authenticity is terrible. The markings of course are the markings and shape of the lock plate, cock and pan are off considerably.

I mean you could customize this gun into a nice french and Indian war musket.

If it were me, I wouldn’t buy this musket, i would just as soon buy part out a kit and make a stock.

If you can prove to me that this appalling piece of tat was made by Holland & Holland, then I will eat my keyboard, in public, with a sauce of your choice.

It is not known when Harris Holland started his own manufacturing, but it is estimated to be in the 1850s - by that time the British military had long parted ways with the flintlock musket, and were at the beginning of adopting the Pattern 53 rifled musket made in Royal small Arms Factory at Enfield Lock in North London.

Furthermore, if you can find any proof that they made a flintlock musket for the common soldier, the promise I made on line 1 will equally apply.

I don’t know how you can view a gun of the telephone or even email I don’t think the Texas guys would have a clue. Photos and full details need to come to London. The whole thing stinks I recall in the early days of H&H they were just retailers guns being made possibly or probably by Webley Bess locks were mass produced in Birmingham. But as I previously said one London workshop was making bespoke Bess locks , one sold recently for £240 on uk eBay. Nice and fully documented I have never seen an H&H flintlock on all my years I try to give Boots the benefit of the doubt but the more I see. No comment


This is a genuine Bess lock made in india

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Front

 

[FlinterNick]

Front

This lock is identical to an older pedersoli bess from the 1970’s, other than the frizzen spring. Everything is the same, I have some doubts its an Indian made lock or maybe the casted copies of the pedersoli lock.