Too much detail

[Fossil]

For new shooters "Just use volume measures". Ignore all the comments on scales and weight. Engineers and smokeless reloaders just have to involve weight comparisons and complicate a very simple process. VOLUME PERIOD! Even the manuals use the weight comparisons and complicate the very simple term of volume. The Forums are even worse. There should be a separate forum category for new shooters that only speaks of VOLUME MEASUREMENTS. It's hard to determine if even the volume measures are the same between Triple7 and Pyrodex because someone always has to throw in weight comparisons in every single discusion!

 

[ohio ramrod]

I use weights to determine what size to make my powder measures using FF as a sample, once the measure is made I use volumes from then on.

 

[dave951]

As a certified instructor, I have no issues explaining the differences to the new folks. It's not a difficult concept to grasp that cubic foot will hold more BBs than tennis balls and that's one way to explain the difference between 4f and 1f.

And yes, I weigh my competition charges when doing load development. Mass is mass, you can't revoke the laws of physics to suit personal taste.

 

[William Lincoln]

In competition "exactness" counts and championships can be hair-splitting.
But for most folks, the old volume methods work fine. The idea is to load-up
and get on task without delay. I know that my volume measurements are
not exact, but they are close enough to have taken more than a few Bucks.
I load based on volume and adjust my loads based upon the powder volume.

 

[necchi]

because someone always has to throw in weight comparisons in every single discusion!

, I'm with ya! But that's been going on for 20yrs or longer with no end in sight.
Wanna see? Watch this;

And yes, I weigh my competition charges when doing load development. Mass is mass, you can't revoke the laws of physics to suit personal taste.

Ya but, once you found that specific accurate weight, can't you transfer that mass to a different "volume measure"?

Then;
Do you "tap" the measure to settle the volume and add more, or just pour freely to get the proper weight?
(see how I used weight and volume in the same question?)

 

[TrapperDude]

Then;
Do you "tap" the measure to settle the volume and add more, or just pour freely to get the proper weight?

I don't shoot competitions, so high precision isn't necessary for me. But what you just said about settling the powder is exactly why I would weigh charges if I were competing. Loose pack has more air and, therefore less mass, even if the volume is the same as a tight pack, which contains less air. 30 grains (by volume) of loosely packed powder would contain less powder than 30 grains (by volume) of tightly packed powder.

An interesting experiment would be to see just how much the weight differencece really can vary within a given volume depending on tightness of the pack.

 

[Gun Tramp]

There should be a separate forum category for new shooters that only speaks of VOLUME MEASUREMENTS.

Yes, quite. Do you recommend they use cubic centimeters or the old standby, cubic inches?

 

[leadhoarder]

Measuring is easy. Now cleaning is something that folks can go into detail about.

 

[hawkeye2]

Yes, quite. Do you recommend they use cubic centimeters or the old standby, cubic inches?

CCs in imported guns, everyone knows they are metric. Cubic inches in domestic products.

 

[LME]

Weight or volume? Some people could mess up a two car funeral! I use the Volume method and never had a problem. I think I will weigh ten charges and see if there is a difference? I already know the answer. People with more experience than I have said it is hard to tell a difference in five grains of black powder, smokeless is a different ballgame? I don't know and I don't care . My muzzle loading rifle shoots better that I can hold it anyway.

 

[dave951]

Let's put this to rest once and for all.

1. In the process of manufacturing, powder (black and otherwise) is made in batches aka "lots". Because of variables, powder differs from lot to lot.

2. In pursuit of accurate or safe ammo, load development is done by WEIGHT. Mass is mass, doesn't matter how big your measure is. That said with a caveat, keep reading.

3. Once a load is determined, ALL powder is measured by volumetric methods, in both black powder and suppository guns. That's a fact of how the majority of measures are made. Some competitors will dispense a set amount and then use a trickler to bring it up to WEIGHT and they're weighing each charge for maximum accuracy.

So virtually all charges, once the weight is determined, are dispensed by volumetric means. When loading match ammo, consistency is king and that means doing the same thing the same way each time every time. After I work up a load, match ammo is assembled using a volumetric measure but I check every 10th round to see if it's within my predetermined tolerance. Now for the fly in the ointment. Since powder varies by lots, if you change lots, you'll have to verify your load data all over again. I'd bet good money that 50gr of 3f by volume from lot A will weigh different from that of lot B. What does that mean? It means you're using more (or less) powder in your gun. If you're a competition shooter, that matters A LOT. Remember consistency?

Now for "the rest of the story". When we discuss accuracy and consistency, there must be a point of reference for any comment to mean anything. How many times I've heard- "I can hit a deer with my gun", so what, I can do that with a Ford or Chevy. Or, "I can hit a 12in steel gong at 100yds"- really, that just tells me your gun shoots 12in groups, sorry not impressed. In discussing things centering around accuracy, be specific. Group size, loading methodology, testing criteria, testing methodology all are very important. Otherwise, yer just plinking and having a good time. Not a bad thing, but it don't win any matches.

 

[Brokennock]

Let's put this to rest once and for all.

1. In the process of manufacturing, powder (black and otherwise) is made in batches aka "lots". Because of variables, powder differs from lot to lot.

2. In pursuit of accurate or safe ammo, load development is done by WEIGHT. Mass is mass, doesn't matter how big your measure is. That said with a caveat, keep reading.

3. Once a load is determined, ALL powder is measured by volumetric methods, in both black powder and suppository guns. That's a fact of how the majority of measures are made. Some competitors will dispense a set amount and then use a trickler to bring it up to WEIGHT and they're weighing each charge for maximum accuracy.

So virtually all charges, once the weight is determined, are dispensed by volumetric means. When loading match ammo, consistency is king and that means doing the same thing the same way each time every time. After I work up a load, match ammo is assembled using a volumetric measure but I check every 10th round to see if it's within my predetermined tolerance. Now for the fly in the ointment. Since powder varies by lots, if you change lots, you'll have to verify your load data all over again. I'd bet good money that 50gr of 3f by volume from lot A will weigh different from that of lot B. What does that mean? It means you're using more (or less) powder in your gun. If you're a competition shooter, that matters A LOT. Remember consistency?

Now for "the rest of the story". When we discuss accuracy and consistency, there must be a point of reference for any comment to mean anything. How many times I've heard- "I can hit a deer with my gun", so what, I can do that with a Ford or Chevy. Or, "I can hit a 12in steel gong at 100yds"- really, that just tells me your gun shoots 12in groups, sorry not impressed. In discussing things centering around accuracy, be specific. Group size, loading methodology, testing criteria, testing methodology all are very important. Otherwise, yer just plinking and having a good time. Not a bad thing, but it don't win any matches.

From lot to lot, even charges of the same weight might have different velocities. Please don't ask how I know

 

[necchi]

Sorry for the edit dave, just having fun too.

Let's put this to rest once and for all.

Well if it was mandatory for membership, reading it might work,, but we all know many can't read. They can click a button, but all that reading stuff,,(?) Piffle! It's easier to just ask it again.

,
,
3. Once a load is determined, ALL powder is measured by volumetric methods, in both black powder and suppository guns. That's a fact of how the majority of measures are made. Some competitors will dispense a set amount and then use a trickler to bring it up to WEIGHT and they're weighing each charge for maximum accuracy.

That would be me, but it only makes sense with that stuff.

Now for "the rest of the story". When we discuss accuracy and consistency, there must be a point of reference for any comment to mean anything. How many times I've heard- "I can hit a deer with my gun", so what, I can do that with a Ford or Chevy. Or, "I can hit a 12in steel gong at 100yds"- really, that just tells me your gun shoots 12in groups, sorry not impressed. In discussing things centering around accuracy, be specific. Group size, loading methodology, testing criteria, testing methodology all are very important. Otherwise, yer just plinking and having a good time. Not a bad thing, but it don't win any matches.

All that is so true, Thank you.
I enjoy the Rendezvous informal competition, novelty targets and walks, where comradery/and besting yer buddy is still fun. Or ya loose and your the one that hasta split wood for breakfast!

 

[LME]

Let's put this to rest once and for all.

1. In the process of manufacturing, powder (black and otherwise) is made in batches aka "lots". Because of variables, powder differs from lot to lot.

2. In pursuit of accurate or safe ammo, load development is done by WEIGHT. Mass is mass, doesn't matter how big your measure is. That said with a caveat, keep reading.

3. Once a load is determined, ALL powder is measured by volumetric methods, in both black powder and suppository guns. That's a fact of how the majority of measures are made. Some competitors will dispense a set amount and then use a trickler to bring it up to WEIGHT and they're weighing each charge for maximum accuracy.

So virtually all charges, once the weight is determined, are dispensed by volumetric means. When loading match ammo, consistency is king and that means doing the same thing the same way each time every time. After I work up a load, match ammo is assembled using a volumetric measure but I check every 10th round to see if it's within my predetermined tolerance. Now for the fly in the ointment. Since powder varies by lots, if you change lots, you'll have to verify your load data all over again. I'd bet good money that 50gr of 3f by volume from lot A will weigh different from that of lot B. What does that mean? It means you're using more (or less) powder in your gun. If you're a competition shooter, that matters A LOT. Remember consistency?

Now for "the rest of the story". When we discuss accuracy and consistency, there must be a point of reference for any comment to mean anything. How many times I've heard- "I can hit a deer with my gun", so what, I can do that with a Ford or Chevy. Or, "I can hit a 12in steel gong at 100yds"- really, that just tells me your gun shoots 12in groups, sorry not impressed. In discussing things centering around accuracy, be specific. Group size, loading methodology, testing criteria, testing methodology all are very important. Otherwise, yer just plinking and having a good time. Not a bad thing, but it don't win any matches.

You are talking about snokeless powder. Black powder measuring is less sensitive. You still need to get your charge as accurate as possible. It still is a more crude propellent compared to smokeless and slight differences in a load of black powder, two or three grains is undetectable.

 

[tenngun]

I use an adjustable volume measure to get my load. When I got it I make a measure for my gun. Pour it full of salt. Then use the salt until I get the hole with enough volume. Never have had a scale.

 

[Brokennock]

I use an adjustable volume measure to get my load. When I got it I make a measure for my gun. Pour it full of salt. Then use the salt until I get the hole with enough volume. Never have had a scale.

Yup. I do basically the same but I use some corn cob polishing media that someone gave me. It is too fine for tumbling and polishing pistol brass, but works nice for this purpose.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I use an adjustable volume measure to get my load. When I got it I make a measure for my gun. Pour it full of salt. Then use the salt until I get the hole with enough volume. Never have had a scale.

Yup. I do basically the same but I use some corn cob polishing media that someone gave me. It is too fine for tumbling and polishing pistol brass, but works nice for this purpose.

I use grits, but I'm a southern boy.

I have an old Redfield balance-beam powder scale which is accurate to a tenth of a grain. It was inherited from my dad. No batteries to replace! I don't use it much, but I'm glad to have it for when I do need it. I use the scale more frequently for projectiles than powder.

Notchy Bob

 

[andy52]

From lot to lot, even charges of the same weight might have different velocities. Please don't ask how I know

Correct, in all types of gunpowder black or smokeless. It's really only an issue if you're pushing the envelope on pressure levels, for the most part, the difference from lot to lot is very little.

 

[jimhallam]

Look at some of the old (19th C) IDEAL powder measures from John Barlow's company. Their rotor transferred a VOLUME of powder from the hopper to the receptacle below (cartridge paper tube, plastic Vial or even a brass unmentionable). HOWEVER they were fitted with a "knocker" -- in the UK the term "knockers" has another connotation ;-))) -- to settle the granules to aid consistency. In like manner when using a flask with my revolver (not allowed in some situations due to Elfin Safety) I close the nozzle with my forefinger, operate the shutter and "bump" the flask against my thigh 3 times to settle the load. In developing this system I did a lot of experimenting, weighing charges to see how consistent the loads were.

Whataever system we use to describe the load what we want is consistency -- ESPECIALLY in a match.

 

[Okie Hog]

Yep, many new shooters ask questions on these boards and are overwhelmed and intimidated with well meaning advice. They should be informed from the beginning that muzzleloader shooting ain't rocket science and what works for someone else may not work for them.

Do you "tap" the measure to settle the volume and add more, or just pour freely to get the proper weight?

Yep, black powder shooters often introduce unnecessary steps when measuring black powder and the substitutes; things like "topping off" the measure and tapping the measure to "settle the powder".

My over 80 year old black powder mentor won most black powder shooting matches he entered. Shortly after i met "Uncle Joe", his drivers license was revoked: Too old to drive. i drove him to his first match in about six months. Some shooters had heard he had passed. A couple drove off after seeing "Uncle Joe" arrive.

"Uncle Joe" slightly overfilled the measure and "struck it level" with a finger, no tapping, no nothing. i do the same thing.

Among other things, i'm a diesel mechanic. Have numerus micrometers. i don't know the exact thickness of my unwashed drill cloth. Don't care because it works very well for me.

On a good day this old codger is capable of shooting excellent 50 yard groups.