Northwest trade guns

[tenngun]

.62 CAL, 20 gauge smooth bore seems to be the norm in NW- TRADE GUNS, why is that the HAPPY MEDIUN? were they made in larger CALIBRES? just courious?

Military guns were built bigger, but civilian smoothbores of all types tended to be smaller. I don’t know if a NWG was made above 20 bore, but 24 and 28 bore were made.
We see even 8 10 and 12 bore top end fowling guns and doubles, but bores around 20 were ‘run of the mill’ gun sizes back in the day.

 

[tenngun]

.62 CAL, 20 gauge smooth bore seems to be the norm in NW- TRADE GUNS, why is that the HAPPY MEDIUN? were they made in larger CALIBRES? just courious?

Just went and looked up. It seems Henry was making .60,.65 and .70NWG. Museum of the fur trade has Belgian trade guns from .59 to .65 HBC sold premade ball in 28 bore and 30 bore size

 

[Red Owl]

Thanks everyone, really appreciate the real life experiences. These guns were used in Canada up to maybe the year 1900 by Native people for all uses but they often were in wooded areas where a 35 yard shot broadside on a moose was often the deal and the 4 " group at 50 yards would work fine. I am pretty sure they were also used on geese with shot and as native peoples, they would shoot geese on the ground if possible. I think the fur trade ledgers carried large shot, suitable for geese. On horseback buffalo hunting, they would be shooting them at point blank range.

 

[Cruzatte]

.62 CAL, 20 gauge smooth bore seems to be the norm in NW- TRADE GUNS, why is that the HAPPY MEDIUN? were they made in larger CALIBRES? just courious?

No. According to Charles E. Hanon Jr. in The Northwest Gun the Hudson Bay Co. typically ordered them in 24 ga. There is one reported by the same author built by the H.E. Leman factory in 12 ga.

 

[tenngun]

Thanks everyone, really appreciate the real life experiences. These guns were used in Canada up to maybe the year 1900 by Native people for all uses but they often were in wooded areas where a 35 yard shot broadside on a moose was often the deal and the 4 " group at 50 yards would work fine. I am pretty sure they were also used on geese with shot and as native peoples, they would shoot geese on the ground if possible. I think the fur trade ledgers carried large shot, suitable for geese. On horseback buffalo hunting, they would be shooting them at point blank range.

I would be happy hunting bulwinkle with this group, has done in a Bambi or two 25 and 50 yards

 

[DuncNZ]

Ok so you're dealing with a single shot, shotgun. Shotgun hunting with traditional guns, can be a really distinctive side discipline to black powder shooting. There are a lot of techniques to shooting the shot to deal with the fact the barrel has no choke, aka the barrel is cylinder bore.

Likewise there are techniques to get the large ball to shoot well enough to take a deer out to 50 yards, and folks that spend a good deal of time can sometimes extend that effective range.

I hunt with a Pedersoli Indian Trade Musket and a Loyalist Arms LLC Trade Gun. Works well on small game. Haven't yet tried either on deer. Maybe this year.



Um..., well that's really going to be on a case-by-case basis. For example a .45 smoothbore is going to have a longer shot column if you used a 3/4 ounce load, than would a 20 gauge trade gun, BUT..., while that might be good on a squirrel, if you were swinging on a flying bird, you might find the lighter and perhaps shorter trade gun the better choice.

You'd be lucky or will spend a good amount of range time to get a smoothbore rifle to shoot a 2" group at 50 yards, from what I've seen. A 4" group would be acceptable on deer (again imho).




Ummm, gee...,not really. While bench shooting reduces the variables, if you're talking trade guns or fusils which typically have no rear sight..., then there are still a lot of variables. Go from caplock to flintlock and you introduce even more variables. So the trade gun might still get the "same group" if we took turns with the same gun from the bench, but where the group was on the target might be very different. Add shooting off-hand, and you may simply have a better fit for that trade gun to your body than I do..., it may have nothing to do with personal shooting skill. I'd advise anybody hunting deer with a round ball and a trade gun to use some sort of supported position.

On the bright side..., there are no rear-sight-police in the field. Nothing stops a person from putting on a makeshift rear sight using the tang bolt.

View attachment 105603

LD

The tang bolt on my Caywood chiefs grade trade gun comes from the bottom up making that a bit difficult

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The tang bolt on my Caywood chiefs grade trade gun comes from the bottom up making that a bit difficult

You can get another tang bolt that is longer, and then have it extend up through the tang through the brass sight, and secure it with a nut.

LD

 

[toot]

Military guns were built bigger, but civilian smoothbores of all types tended to be smaller. I don’t know if a NWG was made above 20 bore, but 24 and 28 bore were made.
We see even 8 10 and 12 bore top end fowling guns and doubles, but bores around 20 were ‘run of the mill’ gun sizes back in the day.

thanking you for the reply.

 

[Notchy Bob]

For re-enacting with a smoothbore in Florida (re post #13), a Northwest gun might not be the most historically accurate choice. If you want a trade gun, a Carolina gun might be more believable. There may have been a very few Northwest guns that made their way this far south, and I believe I once saw an archaeological report that showed a few parts found in Georgia and northeast Florida, but I can't find it. Also, Tecumseh was known to have owned a Northwest gun, and I believe he came as far south as the Florida panhandle in his efforts to recruit tribes for his coalition. I suppose one could spin a story off that. There was also a TVLLE marked lockplate recovered from the Apalachicola River a few years ago, suggesting the possibility of a French trade musket. However, a Northwest gun would be less believable than a Carolina gun, or even an ordinary fowling piece made by an independent gunsmith. Interestingly, by the time of the Seminole Wars, the Indians preferred rifles.

Don't let any of that stop you from getting a Northwest gun if you want one, though! I live in Florida, and I have two, a 24 gauge from Caywood and a 20 gauge from North Star West. They are great guns, and a lot of fun to shoot. It's just that they might not be the best choice for a reenactor down here. I think the US Army was still using M1816 smoothbore muskets at the time of the Second Seminole War (the big one), but Hall rifles and even Colt's Paterson revolving rifles were seeing limited use in the hands of the military down here.

Regarding the rear sight, these came as standard equipment on the original Carolina guns, and as noted by several others, a few Northwest guns had them. I think NMLRA rules for Northwest gun competitions prohibit a rear sight above the plane of the barrel. You can improvise a rear sight for non-competitive shooting, but as someone else noted, the tang screw on early Northwest guns comes up from the bottom and threads into the tang. This would complicate using the tang bolt to secure a rear sight. You can see the position of the tang bolt in the top center photo in this "collage" of an old Barnett Northwest gun:

Most original Northwest guns were nominally 24 gauge, although the ones that have actually been measured tend to be around .60 caliber. The typical "trade ball," intended for use in these guns, was 28 gauge, or .550". I have experimented with shooting my 24 gauge Northwest gun with .550" balls, using shredded bark as wadding over the powder and over the ball, as described by George Bent. Accuracy was poor, although I am a lousy shot anyway. An unexpected finding was that fouling built up heavily and quickly. The bare ball was hard to load after five shots. Which may explain why Indians carried a spare rod with a worm permanently mounted, for wiping the bore:

Indians did load shot for birds and small game. Caspar Whitney alluded to that in his comments about the northern Athabaskan people with whom he traveled. This is from his book, On Snowshoes to the Barren Grounds:

The book was published in 1896. I can't account for his ".30-bore" reference, but trade guns were certainly in use in the 1890's. Whitney illustrated one of them in his book:

Isaac Cowie (rhymes with "Joey") also mentioned the use of shot in trade guns in his book, In the Company of Adventurers. Cowie, a Hudson's Bay Company employee, was traveling on the Canadian plains with a native family. He describes the young son taking game with the family gun, and Cowie himself tried it out for one shot:

Northwest guns were considered "cheap" back in their day, but they were used very effectively by native people for large and small game and birds. Some people don't like the stocks, but my own guns were built to my specified LOP, and the standard cast and drop fit me fine. Triggers on the modern made guns are probably better than the originals, if you get one from a custom builder.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Brazos John]

In the Company of Adventurers. Cowie, a Hudson's Bay Company employee, was traveling on the Canadian plains with a native family...The old man ... turned to me saying, "Cawin gaycou nepe"

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN???
Sorry, I got involved reading the story...

 

[Notchy Bob]

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN???
Sorry, I got involved reading the story...

I'll have to pull out the book to confirm, but it probably meant something like, "Get off yer lazy rump and help me load this cart!"

Addendum: In the Company of Adventurers, or at least part of it, is available to read online here: Google Books

Evidently, the old man was trying to tell Cowie that there was very little water available on the trail ahead, and they would have to travel until they found it. I think he was urging Cowie to get a move on.

Notchy Bob

 

[3Setters]

Not sure if I should ask this here of or a different section. Contemplating getting a NWTG kit from either Caywood or Sitting Fox. Any opinion on who makes the best kit? Which is easier to assemble figuring I get the lock pre-cut out? I know there is a big price difference between companies. My gun will be used for hunting, getting scratched and nicked up, not a gun just to be used on the range where it will be handled with care.

 

[Cruzatte]

Not sure if I should ask this here of or a different section. Contemplating getting a NWTG kit from either Caywood or Sitting Fox. Any opinion on who makes the best kit? Which is easier to assemble figuring I get the lock pre-cut out? I know there is a big price difference between companies. My gun will be used for hunting, getting scratched and nicked up, not a gun just to be used on the range where it will be handled with care.

Can't attest to Sitting Fox. But Caywood is a good manufacturer. I own a Caywood Wilson model.

 

[tenngun]

I am a fan of Sitting Fox…. But
Their NWG is not a very accurate copy.

 

[tenngun]

For re-enacting with a smoothbore in Florida (re post #13), a Northwest gun might not be the most historically accurate choice. If you want a trade gun, a Carolina gun might be more believable. There may have been a very few Northwest guns that made their way this far south, and I believe I once saw an archaeological report that showed a few parts found in Georgia and northeast Florida, but I can't find it. Also, Tecumseh was known to have owned a Northwest gun, and I believe he came as far south as the Florida panhandle in his efforts to recruit tribes for his coalition. I suppose one could spin a story off that. There was also a TVLLE marked lockplate recovered from the Apalachicola River a few years ago, suggesting the possibility of a French trade musket. However, a Northwest gun would be less believable than a Carolina gun, or even an ordinary fowling piece made by an independent gunsmith. Interestingly, by the time of the Seminole Wars, the Indians preferred rifles.

Don't let any of that stop you from getting a Northwest gun if you want one, though! I live in Florida, and I have two, a 24 gauge from Caywood and a 20 gauge from North Star West. They are great guns, and a lot of fun to shoot. It's just that they might not be the best choice for a reenactor down here. I think the US Army was still using M1816 smoothbore muskets at the time of the Second Seminole War (the big one), but Hall rifles and even Colt's Paterson revolving rifles were seeing limited use in the hands of the military down here.

Regarding the rear sight, these came as standard equipment on the original Carolina guns, and as noted by several others, a few Northwest guns had them. I think NMLRA rules for Northwest gun competitions prohibit a rear sight above the plane of the barrel. You can improvise a rear sight for non-competitive shooting, but as someone else noted, the tang screw on early Northwest guns comes up from the bottom and threads into the tang. This would complicate using the tang bolt to secure a rear sight. You can see the position of the tang bolt in the top center photo in this "collage" of an old Barnett Northwest gun:

View attachment 105902

Most original Northwest guns were nominally 24 gauge, although the ones that have actually been measured tend to be around .60 caliber. The typical "trade ball," intended for use in these guns, was 28 gauge, or .550". I have experimented with shooting my 24 gauge Northwest gun with .550" balls, using shredded bark as wadding over the powder and over the ball, as described by George Bent. Accuracy was poor, although I am a lousy shot anyway. An unexpected finding was that fouling built up heavily and quickly. The bare ball was hard to load after five shots. Which may explain why Indians carried a spare rod with a worm permanently mounted, for wiping the bore:

View attachment 105903

View attachment 105907

Indians did load shot for birds and small game. Caspar Whitney alluded to that in his comments about the northern Athabaskan people with whom he traveled. This is from his book, On Snowshoes to the Barren Grounds:

View attachment 105909
The book was published in 1896. I can't account for his ".30-bore" reference, but trade guns were certainly in use in the 1890's. Whitney illustrated one of them in his book:

View attachment 105913

Isaac Cowie (rhymes with "Joey") also mentioned the use of shot in trade guns in his book, In the Company of Adventurers. Cowie, a Hudson's Bay Company employee, was traveling on the Canadian plains with a native family. He describes the young son taking game with the family gun, and Cowie himself tried it out for one shot:

View attachment 105914

View attachment 105915

Northwest guns were considered "cheap" back in their day, but they were used very effectively by native people for large and small game and birds. Some people don't like the stocks, but my own guns were built to my specified LOP, and the standard cast and drop fit me fine. Triggers on the modern made guns are probably better than the originals, if you get one from a custom builder.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Got a little quote by an English gent with his high dollar (pound) gun being outshot by an Indian boy with his trade fuze

 

[DuncNZ]

For re-enacting with a smoothbore in Florida (re post #13), a Northwest gun might not be the most historically accurate choice. If you want a trade gun, a Carolina gun might be more believable. There may have been a very few Northwest guns that made their way this far south, and I believe I once saw an archaeological report that showed a few parts found in Georgia and northeast Florida, but I can't find it. Also, Tecumseh was known to have owned a Northwest gun, and I believe he came as far south as the Florida panhandle in his efforts to recruit tribes for his coalition. I suppose one could spin a story off that. There was also a TVLLE marked lockplate recovered from the Apalachicola River a few years ago, suggesting the possibility of a French trade musket. However, a Northwest gun would be less believable than a Carolina gun, or even an ordinary fowling piece made by an independent gunsmith. Interestingly, by the time of the Seminole Wars, the Indians preferred rifles.

Don't let any of that stop you from getting a Northwest gun if you want one, though! I live in Florida, and I have two, a 24 gauge from Caywood and a 20 gauge from North Star West. They are great guns, and a lot of fun to shoot. It's just that they might not be the best choice for a reenactor down here. I think the US Army was still using M1816 smoothbore muskets at the time of the Second Seminole War (the big one), but Hall rifles and even Colt's Paterson revolving rifles were seeing limited use in the hands of the military down here.

Regarding the rear sight, these came as standard equipment on the original Carolina guns, and as noted by several others, a few Northwest guns had them. I think NMLRA rules for Northwest gun competitions prohibit a rear sight above the plane of the barrel. You can improvise a rear sight for non-competitive shooting, but as someone else noted, the tang screw on early Northwest guns comes up from the bottom and threads into the tang. This would complicate using the tang bolt to secure a rear sight. You can see the position of the tang bolt in the top center photo in this "collage" of an old Barnett Northwest gun:

View attachment 105902

Most original Northwest guns were nominally 24 gauge, although the ones that have actually been measured tend to be around .60 caliber. The typical "trade ball," intended for use in these guns, was 28 gauge, or .550". I have experimented with shooting my 24 gauge Northwest gun with .550" balls, using shredded bark as wadding over the powder and over the ball, as described by George Bent. Accuracy was poor, although I am a lousy shot anyway. An unexpected finding was that fouling built up heavily and quickly. The bare ball was hard to load after five shots. Which may explain why Indians carried a spare rod with a worm permanently mounted, for wiping the bore:

View attachment 105903

View attachment 105907

Indians did load shot for birds and small game. Caspar Whitney alluded to that in his comments about the northern Athabaskan people with whom he traveled. This is from his book, On Snowshoes to the Barren Grounds:

View attachment 105909
The book was published in 1896. I can't account for his ".30-bore" reference, but trade guns were certainly in use in the 1890's. Whitney illustrated one of them in his book:

View attachment 105913

Isaac Cowie (rhymes with "Joey") also mentioned the use of shot in trade guns in his book, In the Company of Adventurers. Cowie, a Hudson's Bay Company employee, was traveling on the Canadian plains with a native family. He describes the young son taking game with the family gun, and Cowie himself tried it out for one shot:

View attachment 105914

View attachment 105915

Northwest guns were considered "cheap" back in their day, but they were used very effectively by native people for large and small game and birds. Some people don't like the stocks, but my own guns were built to my specified LOP, and the standard cast and drop fit me fine. Triggers on the modern made guns are probably better than the originals, if you get one from a custom builder.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

30 bore could mean 30 gauge which is .537" and that could be 28ga "rounded up " by the author . The British talk about bore rather than gauge . Many authors get confused, James Mitchener made that mistake in "Centennial " where the hero had a .32 caliber Hawken rifle , this was a mistake by whoever researched the firearms in the book because 32 gauge is .526" right on the average Hawken bore size .

 

[DuncNZ]

Can't attest to Sitting Fox. But Caywood is a good manufacturer. I own a Caywood Wilson model.

I too have a Caywood Wilson model trade gun and it is the finest shooting smooth bore I have used . When I purchased it second hand the main spring was very weak , I rang Caywoods and a new spring winged its way across the pacific in 3 days , all free of charge . Great guarantee .

 

[Notchy Bob]

30 bore could mean 30 gauge which is .537" and that could be 28ga "rounded up " by the author . The British talk about bore rather than gauge . Many authors get confused, James Mitchener made that mistake in "Centennial " where the hero had a .32 caliber Hawken rifle , this was a mistake by whoever researched the firearms in the book because 32 gauge is .526" right on the average Hawken bore size .

All true. Whitney (who was American) may have also been referring to the ball size rather than the bore, not realizing the balls were that undersized. There is documentation of the trading posts stocking 30 gauge and 28 gauge balls. Ned Roberts, who wrote about a hunting trip to Canada in The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle, described the natives using "...H.B.C. trade guns - percussion lock 20 gauge smoothbore arms..." (page 84 in the edition I have). Roberts, I believe, was up there a few years after Whitney, but not many.

The takeaway from the Whitney quote is that the native people used both shot and ball in their smooth bored trade guns. As for exact bore size, there is some apparent disagreement among the chroniclers, and our best information about bore size comes from those who have examined and documented existing specimens of these guns.

Thanks for your comments!

Notchy Bob

 

[FlinterNick]

The market for black powder trade gun is pretty vast and voluminous.

You can get all kinds of trade guns smoothbore or rifled in calibers as low as .50.

Track’s Northwest Trade Gun Kits are currently suspended, I have some parts supplied for a kit, but have had trouble getter the barrel I want. I was going for 20 gauge but might have to settle for whats in stock.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Not sure if I should ask this here of or a different section. Contemplating getting a NWTG kit from either Caywood or Sitting Fox. Any opinion on who makes the best kit? Which is easier to assemble figuring I get the lock pre-cut out? I know there is a big price difference between companies. My gun will be used for hunting, getting scratched and nicked up, not a gun just to be used on the range where it will be handled with care.

So if it's not a living history or reenacting gun, and you plan on using it in the woods and it seeing some hard use...,

I'd suggest that you look really hard at a Pedersoli Indian Trade Musket....
DGW Indian Trade Musket kit by Pedersoli

Sure, it's not a Caywood, but it's also $1095 less than a Caywood kit assembled in-the-white. AND you can order it now and have it soon.

LD