I give up!

[Sun City]

I bought a custom flintlock about 5 years back and this rifle is really close to putting me on the ‘nut farm’! It’s a Half-Stock Hawken .54 caliber with L&R Lock and Davis set trigger…..really accurate….when I can get it to fire!! When cocked, trigger set and front trigger pulled the cock stops on half cock!! The lock functions as it’s supposed to when removed from stock! I’ve used lip stick on the lock area to determine where if the lick was touching wood anywhere but there is no indication of internal interefence of wood with the lock! I’ve removed the trigger assembly and checked it but found nothing odd! I’m completely stumped!

 

[Brokennock]

I'm no expert but I try to think these things through logically.
If there is no visible inappropriate wood interference, could something else be putting torque or tension on part of the lock causing it to bind up?
Have you tried leaving the lock bolts just a tiny bit looser when installing the lock?
Will it fire with the trigger unset?
Is the flintcock catching on part of the wood next to the lock?

 

[Metalshaper]

is it missing the fly on the tumbler?

 

[Sun City]

I've tried the lock with tension bolts totally relaxed and the fly is in place! At any rate I can't take this rifle hunting! I don't want to have the sonofagun 'clatch' on me! This really chaps my backside fellas!!

 

[sawyer04]

It looks like if their was wood interference there would be evidence of it on the stock. I sincerely would set the lock loose as Brokennock suggested, if you haven't already. Have you disassembled the lock? I have experienced a lock that was disassembled and the fly was replaced backwards causing what you are experiencing. But the lock is functioning off the weapon. If you are satisfied with lock function off, I would definitely be looking at trigger set and function if all else fails. Don't give up, that is what half the fun with the old weapons, figuring them out and fixing them. Patience, logic, study and the mechanics is the learning experience. I realize being custom you expect the weapon to function perfectly. Sometimes just doesn't happen.

 

[Metalshaper]

No slight intended.. had a Siler I started to work on and then put back together. Much to my dismay, during the process the fly, flew and I have no idea
where it landed. does it catch with a fast/complete pull on the front trigger?? and or does it only catch with the set? just trying to figure it out??

 

[ohio ramrod]

The fly might be getting "stuck" have you tried spraying it with a light oil and making sure it works freely.?

 

[Erzulis boat]

Easy fly function check-

Remove mainspring (the big one) only.

Cock the cock/hammer fully. Depress the sear just enough to clear the first notch and then let the sear spring go back to work (putting sear pressure back onto the tumbler) With a functioning fly, it's going to bypass halfcock every time.

By just removing the lock and testing function by manually depressing the sear and holding, it's going to go past halfcock even if the fly is backwards or missing. It will seem to check out.

By using the set trigger function, your are "kicking" the sear for a tiny fraction of time and it will return to pressure on the tumbler in between full cock and half cock. It's that fast. You need to replicate what is actually occurring, and it's not just pressing the sear and holding.

 

[okawbow]

Sounds like a fly problem. The fly might not be doing it’s job due to the sear missing It when the lock fires. I had the same problem on an L&R lock. It worked out of the gun because the sear was held open when setting off by hand. In the gun, the set triggers would momentarily trip the sear, and the sear would miss the fly on the way down due to loose screws on the bridle, or in my case, a bridle that was too thick and allowed too much play for the tumbler and sear. The fly on these locks is so thin, that if there is any extra space between the bridle and tumbler, the sear can miss the fly, resulting in the sear catching at half cock.

First, try tightening the bridle screws as much as possible without causing the sear to drag. If that makes it work, you may need to carefully grind a few thousands off the base of the bridle until there is less slop in the tumbler.

 

[54ball]

There's really a lot too making set triggers work. Each rifle is different. Each rifle is built different. Hawkens are incredibly challenging to set up right.
Online help can point you in some directions but it's best to know how triggers are set up, the geometry, location...and so on. The build books go over this but, they only provide general info.

This could be a difficult fix for even the most experienced smith. Getting it to work is one thing, overcoming the mistakes of the builder (if any) could be the real challenge here.

Does the front trigger work unset?
If it's a double lever trigger (most common set trigger), the front trigger should fire the gun. Also the front trigger unset, should be set up to provide a usable, crisp trigger un set. If the rifle has a horrendous trigger pull un set, this is a clue that the triggers may not be in the right position to the sear bar.

Are the triggers deep enough?
If the trigger plate is not set deep enough, the set trigger lever may be barely hitting the sear. It has enough to pull it out of full cock but not enough momentum for it to clear half cock.

Is the trigger lever spring tension strong enough?
If the set trigger spring (the spring that's on the trigger plate) is not tensioned correctly the trigger lever can hit the sear bar lightly. Like the trigger plate not being set deep enough; as mentioned above, the trigger lever will trip the sear bar out of full cock but not high enough for it to clear half cock.

Trigger inlet....
Like the lock inlet, the trigger inlet can interfere with correct operation.

Lock...
All kinds of lock issues...

Location....
Like mentioned above if the triggers are in a poor location in relation to the sear bar this can cause issues.

Being a Hawken and how they are set up only compounds the issue. On a Hawken the triggergaurd screws into the trigger plate and has a direct relationship with the tang, lock and all that stuff....
Hawkens are a pain in the ass, especially for stuff like this.

You can try to check the tightness of the trigger spring and the trigger inlet but.....
Since this is Hawken, This may be a job for BP smith that knows Hawkens.

 

[lonedave]

Will it fire with the trigger unset?

I think the answer to Brokennock's second question might give a little more insight into the problem.

 

[JamesA]

It looks like if their was wood interference there would be evidence of it on the stock. I sincerely would set the lock loose as Brokennock suggested, if you haven't already. Have you disassembled the lock? I have experienced a lock that was disassembled and the fly was replaced backwards causing what you are experiencing. But the lock is functioning off the weapon. If you are satisfied with lock function off, I would definitely be looking at trigger set and function if all else fails. Don't give up, that is what half the fun with the old weapons, figuring them out and fixing them. Patience, logic, study and the mechanics is the learning experience. I realize being custom you expect the weapon to function perfectly. Sometimes just doesn't happen.

Sun City, I agree with Sawyer04, do not give up! I've said that on several occasions but after cooling off, I go back at it. There is a solution, just keep digging, you will find it. It's a mechanical problem, nothing as contrary or unpredictable as a girlfriend or wife.

 

[Sun City]

In full cock position the front trigger with not activate the system! I'm going to tear the trigger housing out of the stock, post a couple of photos and let you fellows maybe see something odd about this set up. Will also take photo of the interior of the lock! Thank you!!

 

[bang]

Seems if the lock works out of the stock then there is interference or some warping when installed. Use some ink and check for interference and check that the lock plate fits squarely and solid in the stock. If it's wobbly bedding it might be needed.
I had one that would slow the hammer at the half cock point. The tumbler had some roughness at the half cock. I polished it and slightly beveled the bottom and it started clearing it. It would work if I pulled the trigger way back and made sure to hold pressure on it but it just wouldn't easy squeeze and fire without some catching.

 

[Sun City]

Seems if the lock works out of the stock then there is interference or some warping when installed. Use some ink and check for interference and check that the lock plate fits squarely and solid in the stock. If it's wobbly bedding it might be needed.
I had one that would slow the hammer at the half cock point. The tumbler had some roughness at the half cock. I polished it and slightly beveled the bottom and it started clearing it. It would work if I pulled the trigger way back and made sure to hold pressure on it but it just wouldn't easy squeeze and fire without some catching.

I've used lipstick and no warping or wood touching the working portion of the Lock!

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Make sure all the screws in the lock are tight . My Renegade did the same thing as did my son's Cougar . Both times it was a screw in the lock that was loose causing the problem ,

 

[Erzulis boat]

If each assembly (trigger/lock) work correctly independently, then when used together this may be where the trouble is.

Isolate each unit.

Remove the lock, and watch through the sear hole clearance (in the wood)-if the trigger can go high enough (once pulled) to trip the sear "arm" with room to spare. This includes the spring loaded armature when set too. Basically you are looking for any wood interference that hits the trigger and set arm from going high enough. If it hits wood with just a little travel, this can definitely cause the issue described.

Install the lock (screwed in completely), and remove the trigger. Can the sear arm (through where the trigger plate sits) be depressed deep enough to completely clear the wood and far enough to get COMPLETELY away from the tumbler? If it hits any wood, it can cause this issue too.

ETA- On a correctly functioning lock with a fly, if the sear clears the first notch (from full cock) then the fly will NEVER allow the sear to drop into halfcock as it is a metal on metal
mechanical block because the fly acts in a matter akin to a ratchet.

 

[Grenadier1758]

It looks like if their was wood interference there would be evidence of it on the stock. I sincerely would set the lock loose as Brokennock suggested, if you haven't already. Have you disassembled the lock? I have experienced a lock that was disassembled and the fly was replaced backwards causing what you are experiencing. But the lock is functioning off the weapon. If you are satisfied with lock function off, I would definitely be looking at trigger set and function if all else fails. Don't give up, that is what half the fun with the old weapons, figuring them out and fixing them. Patience, logic, study and the mechanics is the learning experience. I realize being custom you expect the weapon to function perfectly. Sometimes just doesn't happen.

Its too soon to give up.

You have an L&R lock. One of the notorious quirks of the L&R lock was the fly. It is one of the few locks that the fly can be installed correctly or backwards. I have experienced the same issue with an L&R lock. You can see a slightly different angle of the fly in the tumbler. One side will have the edge of the fly nearly perpendicular to the tumbler and the fly will catch the sear and stop the tumbler from completing its rotation. The other edge is slightly beveled and the beveled edge must be installed toward the full cock notch. In my opinion, the fly is installed backwards. At least the beveled edge needs to be polished.

Have you ever disassembled the lock?

I have an L&R #900 lock that should be identical to the lock in @Sun City's Hawken. I have to be very careful when I do the full up cleaning to be sure the fly is installed correctly. Note: I do all my lock disassembly and assembly in a large white plastic bag to keep any parts that might go flying off in a specific location. When I have all the parts installed correctly, the lock functions flawlessly.

Pay special attention to step 6 when disassembling the lock.

Flintlock Parts Diagram (lr-rpl.com)

 

[Erzulis boat]

I am 99% sure it is the fly. Show some pics.

Some posts above, I explained an easy way to check fly function. Just "firing" the lock in your hands DOESN"T mean it's working properly!

 

[Erzulis boat]

L&R fly installed correctly. It CANNOT go to half cock on the firing sequence. Metal on metal BLOCK. Actually lifting/pushing sear away from the half cock notch in the tumbler.

If I install it the other way, it's going to drop to half cock every time.