How much Gun for Big Game? or How Little!

[BS]

Have seen too many three shot groups with Foster slugs with one missing a 12” target at 50 yards to disregard accuracy. A shot in the guts or leg of an animal just isn’t good enough for me. But we don’t use Foster Slugs in our muzzleloaders so calling BS on direction this thread is taking.

So what can we use, any Ideas.......I just used something I know, so what do you have for ideas.

Yes, it was a poor choice for comparison.

Foster slugs are out!

Big round balls leave big holes, but how big a hole do you need?

 

[Bob McBride]

How can a dead bear kill you? Food poisoning maybe? This is not a smart a** question, I'd genuinely like to know, this is not bear country down here in South Texas and I've never had an encouner with one.

The idea is that a big Grizz‘s resting heart rate is so low that it can carry on for some time before it knows it’s dead. Lots of stories growing up in Alaska of maulings that happened after a bear was mortally wounded. Being dead doesn’t seem to lessen their rage when they are in full ‘tear your as$ up’ mode.

 

[Eutycus]

The idea is that a big Grizz‘s resting heart rate is so low that it can carry on for some time before it knows it’s dead. Lots of stories growing up in Alaska of maulings that happened after a bear was mortally wounded. Being dead doesn’t seem to lessen their rage when they are in full ‘tear your as$ up’ mode.

Okay I get what you're saying but the bear was not really dead yet. Dead was just a figure of speech.

 

[tenngun]

How can a dead bear kill you? Food poisoning maybe? This is not a smart a** question, I'd genuinely like to know, this is not bear country down here in South Texas and I've never had an encouner with one.

You don’t recall Walter Brennan asking everyone if they were ever stung by a dead bee?
Bears are pretty tough and can do a lot of damage even though he has a mortal wound.
even dead deer have done a bit of damage to hunters when not treated as a dangerous animal cause it looked dead. So even though you kilt the bear he had enough left to kilt you.just like Hatchet Jack
Bears do like to take an honor guard to hell.

 

[Bob McBride]

Okay I get what you're saying but the bear was not really dead yet. Dead was just a figure of speech.

Yes, not Technically dead. That would be weird.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

A heart shot animal can live for several seconds maybe up to 30. That is plenty long enough for a bear to end the contest.

 

[Rudyard]

That magazine has been out of print for quite a few years. I'll see if I can find that particular, but I recall a Dall Sheep on the cover. Seyfried's experiments were with a couple of 20 bore barrels with different rifling twists and prompted me to order a similar barrel in 1-90" (?) twist.

' Muzzleloader Magazine ' did have a new owner but is still being published I wrote for the first owner but the current one want's fancy photos I cant produce. I don't recall that issue I'me sure I would have kept it , Buckskin Press have a lot of stuff not just fur head stuff and to his credit J. D. Baird reprinted Forsyth's first book' The Sporting rifle & its Projectiles ' He wrote a quite different .Work.' The Highlands of Central India' . He gets all Express rifles in it but dies on a trip home .
Rudyard

 

[Stony Broke]

I've killed game with a variety of calilbers over the years, but I agree with former statements concerning using larger calibers. A guy might do just fine with a .45 for larger game, but for me anymore, I would be using my .62 with a rifled barrel. A larger caliber isn't going to do much more damage, but is going to guarantee further penetration due to the increased weight of the ball. Lots of game is taken with smaller calibers, but a guy should use something that is more likely to be effective if his shot is slightly off from where he wants it to hit too.....

 

[Norsk]

How can a dead bear kill you? Food poisoning maybe? This is not a smart a** question, I'd genuinely like to know, this is not bear country down here in South Texas and I've never had an encouner with one.

Their Hearts beat so slowly that even if a bullet peiced the Heart,the Bear would still have enough blood pressure to charge and potentially kill you.

 

[R.J.Bruce]

If you don't live in grizzly bear country, then I like a .58 caliber rifle as a good compromise between ball weight and penetration. According to Howie1968, the .570 diameter balls he is shooting out of his pair of Thompson/Center Big Boar .58 caliber rifles penetrate both gristle sheilds of the really big hogs that he likes to hunt as well as any centerfire cartridge that he has used. That's a really good endorsement for the caliber.

If I were again to live in grizzly bear/brown bear country I think I would consider having a custom, short, 24" long, octagon-round barrel made up by Jason at Rice in the so-called .66 caliber; which is truly a .67 caliber (0.672" bore diameter). Have the breech diameter be the same as on the Early Dutch Lancaster, 1.312" (0.304"). Taper fast over 8" to the transition from octagon-to-round to a diameter of 1.012" (0.154"), and finally taper out to the muzzle over 16" to a diameter of 0.952" (0.124"). Numbers in parentheses are barrel wall thicknesses. Radius crown on the muzzle (coned). A 1 in 48" rate of twist.

It would be a contemporary version of an English Sporting Rifle. Hard sugar maple for the stock blank, as straight grained as possible. Fullstock. Kibler round face English flintlock. Single trigger set in a long (10.5"-11") triggerbar that is double-bolted to a custom 6" long, beavertail tang, 1-piece, flint breech plug. White Lightnin' touch hole liner.

Tall, brass, bead front sight that tapers towards the muzzle, and slants downwards towards the bore. Lowell Haarer-style, tang-mounted, ghost ring rear sight. Sling swivels that are 1.5" wide with a leather Rhodesian sling.

Ramrod that measures 0.500" in diameter with matching custom ramrod pipes, all to reduce the possibility of the ramrod breaking in the field. Maybe soak the ramrods in kerosene/mineral oil to make them more flexible?

Brass, 10-32 ramrod tips on both ends of the ramrod to allow for the use of Dave Crissalli's Gunner's Mate flintlock 10-in-1 tool. Brass tips to be glued, & double cross-pinned to the ramrod, with the pins set at 90° to one another.

No buttplate, stock to be ambidextrous (two cheekpieces?)(no cheekpieces?), with the butt measuring at least 2.250" wide × 5" tall. Spread that recoil around. Drop at the comb to be about 1.875", and the drop at the heel to be about 3.375". Length of pull to the single trigger to be no more than 13", perhaps 12.750". Gotta be able to easily mount the rifle when wearing heavy winter clothes.

A utilitarian big bore rifle. Short. Handy. Ambidextrous. Friendly. Modern Rhodesian sling to allow for real supported shooting. No buttplate so it's both quieter, and for my osteoarthritis, less punishing. Plenty of smack down power in close, which is where it's going to count.

 

[BS]

If hunting big bears, I would want a heavy double large bore and a "plug bayonet".

 

[BS]

R.J.Bruce,

Another nice advantage of the Early Dutch Lancaster is its's length, when you slip the plug bayonet into it.

The English Sporter with wide butt plate and 2.1/2"s of drop are very helpful on big bores. [one of my favorite designs]

 

[R.J.Bruce]

Or, maybe a hunter's sword

 

[appalichian hunter]

A hunters sword is a good ideal, once the griz has eradicated you he can chop ya up in bite size pieces, less heart burn that way. Just sayin. I look at it this way big bore big hole lots of blood, I really do not think you can be under gunned when hunting especially the big predators.

 

[BS]

I have never heard of a 'hunters sword', but I like the idea. Maybe one with a plug on it!

 

[R.J.Bruce]

A hunters sword is a good ideal, once the griz has eradicated you he can chop ya up in bite size pieces, less heart burn that way. Just sayin. I look at it this way big bore big hole lots of blood, I really do not think you can be under gunned when hunting especially the big predators.

I have zero interest in ever shooting a grizzly bear, UNLESS I am being threatened by the animal. My above post was the kind of rifle I would like to carry if I was hunting other game in grizzly bear country.

With an increasingly larger population in the United States that is encroaching upon the big predators territory, the mountain lions, black bears, wolves, and grizzly bears are getting habituated to human activities. The barren ground grizzly, the brown bear, and the polar bear will stalk you, and kill you. Any challenges to their territory will be met with aggression.

That's why I am glad I don't live in Alaska any more. I'm too old to be fighting off grizzly bears.

 

[Kenn]

As Grimord says it's about shot placement not caliber. a Grizzly bear has been taken down with nothing more than a .22lr, not something I'd want to face one with but it was taken down with one shot behind the ear.

John McPhee wrote of an incident in his book "Coming into the Country" where an Alaskan Brown was taken out with one shot from a .22 LR pistol. Shot placement was from under the jaw which illustrates the precarious situation of the shooter!

 

[Bob McBride]

There’s a fun book that I grew up reading in Alaska called ‘Alaska Bear Tales’. A quick read of that book will clarify just how outgunned we are in the presence of a big bear.

 

[andy52]

John McPhee wrote of an incident in his book "Coming into the Country" where an Alaskan Brown was taken out with one shot from a .22 LR pistol. Shot placement was from under the jaw which illustrates the precarious situation of the shooter!

The incident I was referring to is the Bella Twin bear. She used a .22lr single shot rifle the bear went down with one shot however she did shoot it 5 or 6 more times in the side of the head just to be sure it stayed down.....

 

[mooman76]

There’s a fun book that I grew up reading in Alaska called ‘Alaska Bear Tales’. A quick read of that book will clarify just how outgunned we are in the presence of a big bear.

I read that book and have others from the same author. Enjoyed them very much. There was one particular story of a black bear fighting a brown. The black actually killed the brown but they both ended up dieing in the end.