Percussion caps in period

[Old Hawkeye]

I'm not going to weigh anything, but I can assure you 12 flints is no where near the size of 1000 caps. A dozen flints is like a roll of quarters, and likely only weights a few ounces. 1000 caps, even loosely bagged is going to take up a bag at least the size of a fist, something like 6 times the size of the flints, and would likely weigh a couple pounds.

If you think 1000 caps weigh 2 pounds, you need a new scale. Regardless, if the volume of the caps is "slightly" bigger than I estimated, 12 flints is not going to provide the same number of shots as 1000 caps, is it. The number of flints that will give 1000 sparks is much bigger in volume & weight than 1000 caps. Why would anybody with a brain shun the best technology available when the reliability of their ignition system could mean the difference between life & death? You flintlock guys are living in a dream world if you think the people back then would think carrying enough flints is better than carrying enough caps. What are you thinking? That you can't run out of flints? Will a dozen flints last you forever? BTW, seems to me that the volume of caps in a tin of 100 caps isn't much different in size than your average flint. You ever get 100 sparks from a flint?? 1000 caps is no where near the size of my fist even if I leave them in the tins. In fact, I can hold them in the palm of my hand! I know because I just did it. Can you get the amount of flints it takes to get 1000 sparks in the palm of your hand??? Just sayin'.

 

[megasupermagnum]

Sure, I've got 100 shots from a flint. I'm told that on a good lock 100 shots per flint is the norm. Lets say on average you get 50 shots from a flint, just to be well on the safe side. That's only 20 flints for 1000 shots. I think you would be blown away by how small 20 flints are. Different guns take different sizes, but a good average would be about 5/8"x3/4"x3/16". Plus remember that these are wedge shaped, so 2 stacked together is something like 3/4"x3/4"x3/16". I would guestimate 10 tins of caps are equivalent to around 50 flints in size. I have no idea what either weigh, but both are light enough to be inconsequential.

 

[Old Hawkeye]

US Army Infantrymen fought the Mexican Army in the Mexican War armed primarily with Flintlock smoothbore Muskets for this very same reason.....the US Army Ordnance Dept felt that relying on logistical supply for a then "new" technology was unnecessary when Soldiers were already armed with flintlocks that worked just fine.

Percussion rifles like the .54 "Mississippi " were more or less for Elite specialty troops. The average Line Grunt was issued a 1795 or 1816, etc Flintlock Springfield.

Likely because the Army had barrels and barrels of flints in storage and no sure way to guarantee percussion caps could be issued.

A single Flint would last an entire engagement, making sure each man had 30-50 caps is a different story.

We don't often think of it today but imagine an entire Division of Infantry rendered combat ineffective because caps couldn't be made available. If your guns don't go Boom you can't fight.

Imagine an entire Division of infantry rendered combat ineffective because "flints" couldn't be made available. Why do people think that flints just appear out of thin air & don't have the exact same supply problems that anything else does? Do you think that when a flint fails that the soldier just picks up the closest rock & keeps firing??? Do you know that a single flint could be used for an "entire engagement" from experience?

 

[CaptainKirk]

If you think 1000 caps weigh 2 pounds, you need a new scale. Regardless, if the volume of the caps is "slightly" bigger than I estimated, 12 flints is not going to provide the same number of shots as 1000 caps, is it. The number of flints that will give 1000 sparks is much bigger in volume & weight than 1000 caps. Why would anybody with a brain shun the best technology available when the reliability of their ignition system could mean the difference between life & death? You flintlock guys are living in a dream world if you think the people back then would think carrying enough flints is better than carrying enough caps. What are you thinking? That you can't run out of flints?

That being said, you can't stop along a meandering stream and pick up a tin of caps. Flint or obsidian can be found in most natural settings while caps can't. Just sayin'.

 

[megasupermagnum]

Imagine an entire Division of infantry rendered combat ineffective because "flints" couldn't be made available. Why do people think that flints just appear out of thin air & don't have the exact same supply problems that anything else does? Do you think that when a flint fails that the soldier just picks up the closest rock & keeps firing??? Do you know that a single flint could be used for an "entire engagement" from experience?

The way I see it, flints were in circulation for 250 years or so by the mountain man era. There should have been no problem finding them anywhere in the world. One issue I don't see mentioned about percussion caps often is that they were not standardized. They were not at all like the #11 caps we have today. I was just recently reading in I think Handloader magazine about some early cap designs, there were essentially opposite of today. The center was solid, and the ignition went around a post. I have no idea when the hollow center came to be, but it was not the original design.

 

[Old Hawkeye]

That being said, you can't stop along a meandering stream and pick up a tin of caps. Flint or obsidian can be found in most natural settings while caps can't. Just sayin'.

Better hope you are in the "right" natural setting because there is a whole lot more area without "natural" flints than with it.

 

[Stantheman86]

Imagine an entire Division of infantry rendered combat ineffective because "flints" couldn't be made available. Why do people think that flints just appear out of thin air & don't have the exact same supply problems that anything else does? Do you think that when a flint fails that the soldier just picks up the closest rock & keeps firing??? Do you know that a single flint could be used for an "entire engagement" from experience?

Calm down man it isn't that serious, no I haven't used a Flintlock in a pitched battle. I guess I'm not qualified to respond to any posts

 

[Stantheman86]

That being said, you can't stop along a meandering stream and pick up a tin of caps. Flint or obsidian can be found in most natural settings while caps can't. Just sayin'.

In the 1840s , Flints were already in the supply stream and the US Army Ordnance Dept just went with what was readily available.

Re-Arming every Division, Unit, State Militia etc. with new Percussion weapons would not have been feasible because this was new technology. Percussion caps were not a widely distributed item and logistics are vital to keeping a war going.

 

[CaptainKirk]

Better hope you are in the "right" natural setting because there is a whole lot more area without "natural" flints than with it.

Truth be told, I'm not that concerned. I can buy a dozen flints from TOW without having to scrounge! But seriously, if I was leaving St. Louis in the 1840's I might be a little concerned about when and where I would be able to re-outfit. Sorta like trying to buy caps in today's CV19 atmosphere.

 

[LongWalker]

As for the supposed reliability of percussion caps, it seems that modern caps are being compared with flintlocks: in general, in the hands of today's folks overall, modern caps are more reliable than flintlocks. (I'm not arguing specific cases here--we all know flintlock experts are probably more reliable than average newbies with a caplock.)

Cap technology in 1830-1840 was changing on a frequent basis. Caps of that day were not the reliable, basically-waterproof caps we have now. Cap manufacture was still evolving. The quantity of fulminate metered into each cap was not consistent. The experimentation I've done making caps in the manner of the day, with cap recipes of the day makes me suspect that as many of 5% of the early caps might not have gone off. Twenty years later--1860--that wasn't as much of a problem, but there are still accounts of caps failing to fire, or a gun failing to go off.

As pointed out earlier, there were different sizes and different systems, and not a lot of interchangeability. (We have something similar today--I can source all the winged musket caps I want, but they won't work on my rifle/shotgun/pistols. My #10s and #11s won't work on an 1841 musket.) And flints were already in the supply system, military and civilian, and most folks could make something work if the nominally-correct size was not available.

It is kinda like the gal I heard at a gas station, literally screaming at everyone because she couldn't charge her Tesla there. New technology, and the means to support it, takes time to be adopted and universally supported. Even then, not everyone is going to adopt it right away, or at all.

 

[tenngun]

That being said, you can't stop along a meandering stream and pick up a tin of caps. Flint or obsidian can be found in most natural settings while caps can't. Just sayin'.

I don’t think obsidian will work in a flintlock. I’ve experimented with some chips but got no spark.
I use the bigger hammer technique to make flint. Strike rock with big hammer get chips find something that works. However flint, chert, jasper don’t grow wild everywhere.
I would grab a flint smoothie as my number one survival gun should we have the long foretold much delayed collapse of civilization. On the other hand,few of these ol’ boys were moving in to the wild. They were moving to a place where they could build a future. They expected to resupply.

 

[tenngun]

As for the supposed reliability of percussion caps, it seems that modern caps are being compared with flintlocks: in general, in the hands of today's folks overall, modern caps are more reliable than flintlocks. (I'm not arguing specific cases here--we all know flintlock experts are probably more reliable than average newbies with a caplock.)

Cap technology in 1830-1840 was changing on a frequent basis. Caps of that day were not the reliable, basically-waterproof caps we have now. Cap manufacture was still evolving. The quantity of fulminate metered into each cap was not consistent. The experimentation I've done making caps in the manner of the day, with cap recipes of the day makes me suspect that as many of 5% of the early caps might not have gone off. Twenty years later--1860--that wasn't as much of a problem, but there are still accounts of caps failing to fire, or a gun failing to go off.

As pointed out earlier, there were different sizes and different systems, and not a lot of interchangeability. (We have something similar today--I can source all the winged musket caps I want, but they won't work on my rifle/shotgun/pistols. My #10s and #11s won't work on an 1841 musket.) And flints were already in the supply system, military and civilian, and most folks could make something work if the nominally-correct size was not available.

It is kinda like the gal I heard at a gas station, literally screaming at everyone because she couldn't charge her Tesla there. New technology, and the means to support it, takes time to be adopted and universally supported. Even then, not everyone is going to adopt it right away, or at all.

I understood during the late unpleasantness the standard issue was twelve caps to ten cartridges, but cap locks were old hat by the war. I recall a memoir written about the time of the WBTS making a point to explain the flint lock mechanism to a younger audience, when telling his story about the Black Hawk war

 

[LongWalker]

I saw the cap allowance mentioned in some instructions on repro'ing cartridge packs. I figured whoever set up the allowance had been under fire, and knew that fine motor skills like capping a gun seem to go away under such circumstances!

 

[Stantheman86]

I think a lot of 1830's-1850's era civilians used Flinters for the reasons stated above, they just kept using what they could keep running.

 

[Timber Wolf]

Sorta like trying to buy caps in today's CV19 atmosphere.

I was waiting on somebody to point that out. Glad I have a couple of flintlocks and flints laid in just in case I have to trek West or something. Down here it would be more likely I would have to fight off some Seminoles though.

 

[toot]

Lead probably would have been a bigger issue if one was shooting alot. It is heavier and with a plains rifle with a large bore would have much more weight. 1000 caps isn't much weight, but 1000 balls or the lead to cast them is.

not only a bag of 1000 lead balls would have slowed you down when being chased by a big BRUIN & maybe have pulled your pants down? not a good thought!

 

[Siringo]

We know flints were shipped well past the WBTS.
La Vern has another thread listing issues to French officers, about one flint for every sixteen shots.
I’ve had fifty shot flints and twenty shot flints. But if you think in terms of storage. Twelve hundred caps take up very little room for a thousand shots, compared to a bag of flints for the same number of shots.
In 1859 an officer wrote a guidebook to trails west. This is less then twenty years after the last rendezvous and reflects what this man had learned in a decade previously to publishing.
When I read it I was surprised how much chances to resupply one had moving west.
In KC no there is the wreck of the Arabia, a steam boat going west. It’s chocked full of stuff, including about 20% of its cargo that was luxury stuff.
When you walk through it’s like an old time hardware store and well stocked one. The sobering thing was knowing a few days ahead of Arabia was another one. And one just a day or two behind. Ever day the river was opened to traffic that year.
Its surprising how much was moving in to the ‘uncivilized west’
Reading the history of the war of 1812 I was likewise surprised by the shear volume of trade. At sea, and too how much ran down the Ohio to New Orleans. Unlike the the pictures of an axe and the woods and little more then a mule load, people were pretty well supplied on the frontier.

We know flints were shipped well past the WBTS.
La Vern has another thread listing issues to French officers, about one flint for every sixteen shots.
I’ve had fifty shot flints and twenty shot flints. But if you think in terms of storage. Twelve hundred caps take up very little room for a thousand shots, compared to a bag of flints for the same number of shots.
In 1859 an officer wrote a guidebook to trails west. This is less then twenty years after the last rendezvous and reflects what this man had learned in a decade previously to publishing.
When I read it I was surprised how much chances to resupply one had moving west.
In KC no there is the wreck of the Arabia, a steam boat going west. It’s chocked full of stuff, including about 20% of its cargo that was luxury stuff.
When you walk through it’s like an old time hardware store and well stocked one. The sobering thing was knowing a few days ahead of Arabia was another one. And one just a day or two behind. Ever day the river was opened to traffic that year.
Its surprising how much was moving in to the ‘uncivilized west’
Reading the history of the war of 1812 I was likewise surprised by the shear volume of trade. At sea, and too how much ran down the Ohio to New Orleans. Unlike the the pictures of an axe and the woods and little more then a mule load, people were pretty well supplied on the frontier.

The Arabia is fascinating. I have been to the museum several times. Think of it as a 1856 Walmart. What is interesting is the only firearms i recall seeing are a few single shot percussion pistols on board. At least that particular trip.

 

[Carbon 6]

BTW, seems to me that the volume of caps in a tin of 100 caps isn't much different in size than your average flint.

Last night I was cleaning off my desk and happened upon a cap tin, I gave it a shake and it rattled funny so I opened it. Inside where 3 small worn out cut agate flints. So even 30 small flints would have roughly the volume as 1000 caps.
1000/30=33 shots per flint equivalent. In this case, I think the math works, but mountain men didn't have cut flints.
There is one thing I know for sure, You can replace a bad cap a whole lot faster than you can replace a bad flint.
I don't think the gun industry would have adopted and shifted to caps if they weren't more reliable than a flintlock.
In my heart though, flintlocks still rule.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

They werent.

Lots of old mountain hands kept flintlock and for good reason, well into the caplock age. Drop your tin of caps in the snow and it's ruined. Once the caps are gone the gun won't fire etc.

Flints could be found anywhere and Knapped into shape to keep the rifle going as long as powder was around. Hunters would even harvest balls from th insides of game and recast them in their mold.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

I have my ancestor's 40 caliber percussion rifle that he brought across the plains to Oregon in 1845 on the so called lost wagon train guided by Steven Meek. I have 2 different books as well as a written family history of the trip and nowhere have I read anything about flintlocks. I have to admit though that I don't recall reading about percussion either. He wasn't a city boy and came from a long line of American pioneers and farmers and would have had the sense to pack a rifle that was the most reliable and practical in that era.