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Is that a Hawken?

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I posted this in another thread but I want to put it here. Tolerate me :doh:

Well, there has been a lot of criticism of guns that are supposed to be like the Hawken.. however to say that all Hawkens look like the first image is not exactly accurate. Here in first image is one 'Hawken' copy as we usually expect. The other five [actually six .. two in last image] give us some reason to be a little less sure. They are certified, legitimate Hawken rifles. Note the statement in the image with explanation: 'complexities of the Hawken era.' OK … let the fun begin. Polecat

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My opinion is that the Hawkens were a work in progress. Many people copied them and added their personal preferences to their own designs
 
I posted this in another thread but I want to put it here. Tolerate me :doh:

Well, there has been a lot of criticism of guns that are supposed to be like the Hawken.. however to say that all Hawkens look like the first image is not exactly accurate. Here in first image is one 'Hawken' copy as we usually expect. The other five [actually six .. two in last image] give us some reason to be a little less sure. They are certified, legitimate Hawken rifles. Note the statement in the image with explanation: 'complexities of the Hawken era.' OK … let the fun begin. Polecat

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From what I've read there weren't just the Hawken brothers making "Hawken Rifles", called Plains Rifles at the time, there were others making similar rifles in and around St Louis, Kentucky, Pennsylvania and even imported from Europe. The Hawken Brothers were just the most famous.
 
From what I've read there weren't just the Hawken brothers making "Hawken Rifles", called Plains Rifles at the time, there were others making similar rifles in and around St Louis, Kentucky, Pennsylvania and even imported from Europe. The Hawken Brothers were just the most famous.
Yes, I understand that However each of these is marked/stamped as Hawken and have been checked thoroughly. The Hawken family made guns in several locations, many before they went to St. Louis. There are 43 Hawkens in one collection in New Mexico with several variations. Just the best info I can find. Polecat
 
Question on the Hawken rifles did the brothers make any in flint ? because all I have send in pic has been percussion. I just curious about making one this weather maybe.
thanks
 
Yes, I understand that However each of these is marked/stamped as Hawken and have been checked thoroughly. The Hawken family made guns in several locations, many before they went to St. Louis. There are 43 Hawkens in one collection in New Mexico with several variations. Just the best info I can find. Polecat
I missed what you were driving at. Sorry about that. I'm not surprised that even the Hawken brothers made different "versions" of the same rifle.
 
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Well, there has been a lot of criticism of guns that are supposed to be like the Hawken.. however to say that all Hawkens look like the first image is not exactly accurate. Here in first image is one 'Hawken' copy as we usually expect. The other five [actually six .. two in last image] give us some reason to be a little less sure. They are certified, legitimate Hawken rifles.

Dale, there is a lot of variation in Hawken rifles. The brothers formed their partnership in 1825. Jacob died in 1849. Samuel continued to manage the shop until about 1855 when he semi-retired, though he apparently continued to build rifles part-time for a few more years. That's 30+ years of making rifles in St. Louis, so their rifles did change over time.

Your selection of 6/7 rifles isn't the best to demonstrate the variations in Hawken rifles, though. The fourth rifle is probably a fake. It sold at Rock Island Auction for only $4,313, which is well below market value for an authentic Hawken. The stamp on the barrel doesn't look right. The fifth rifle is questionable, too. Tristam Campbell and Christian Hoffman, who were employees and sometimes partners to the Hawkens, made rifles in the style of the Hawken brothers and often used back action locks. I know of no authentic S. Hawken rifle with a back action lock, though.

Excluding those two, the second rifle looks like a small caliber "sporting rifle" that was made for the local market. A number of these rifles survive.

The third rifle is generally accepted as a J&S Hawken full stock even though the barrel marking is illegible. Hawken full stock rifles are a little different than their half stock rifles. They didn't simply use the same pattern for the stock and extend the wood all the way to the muzzle. There are differences in full stock rifles made in the J&S period and full stock rifles made after Jacob died, too.

The last two rifles were a puzzle to John Baird. Both are marked J&S Hawken. I don't know anything more than what Baird wrote in the caption for the top rifle, but I saw the bottom rifle at the Colorado Gun Collectors Show a few years ago and got to examine it. It definitely was originally a full stock rifle and was cut back to half stock sometime during its working life.

But I do agree with you that it is wrong to think that all Hawken rifles looked like the Kit Carson Hawken and the Jim Bridger Hawken, which are the image that most people have when they think of a Hawken rifle.

The brothers made different "models":
  • Early half stock large bore rifles
  • Early full stock large bore rifles
  • Small bore "sporting rifles" for the local market
  • Late half stock large bore rifles
  • Late full stock large bore rifles
  • Target rifles
  • California rifles
  • Fancy presentation rifles
Within these "models" were variations. Some had patch boxes--some did not. Some had flat-to-wrist trigger guards--some had the scroll guard. Most were iron mounted, but some were brass mounted. Most full stock rifles had a fixed patent breech, but two are known with a hooked patent breech. Most half stock rifles had a hooked patent breech, but some have a fixed breech. During the J&S period, probably a third of the rifles they made had walnut stocks and two-thirds maple stocks. Most after 1849 were made with maple stocks. Most Hawken rifles have double set triggers, but a couple are known with single triggers.

...called Plains Rifles at the time...

Just for the record, surviving documents show that the Hawkens called them Mountain Rifles at the time. The term "Plains Rifle" was coined by collectors in the middle of the 20th century, and Charles E. Hanson, Jr. made the term popular when his book, The Plains Rifle, was published in 1960.

Question on the Hawken rifles did the brothers make any in flint ? because all I have send in pic has been percussion.

Just to reiterate what kje54 said, yes they likely did make flintlock rifles, especially during the second half of the 1820's, but none survive that are recognizable. That's why you only see pictures of percussion rifles. That's all that are known at this time. There is a possible J&S Hawken rifle that was flint converted to percussion, but it hasn't been authenticated yet. The Smithsonian full stock S Hawken rifle was originally flint, then converted to percussion, but it was made after 1850.

Records have been located that document that Etienne Provost had a J&S Hawken rifle in the mountains in 1828. He could have purchased the rifle in 1827 since he was in St. Louis the latter half of that year. This rifle was most certainly a flintlock. Provost also purchased two more Hawken rifles in 1829 for $25 each to take to the mountains. These would have most likely been flintlocks, too, and were also probably full stock rifles based on the price.
 
From what I’ve read.
From what I’ve personally seen. ( Original’s).
From someone who I consider as close to an authority during our modern times, our very own plmeek. He once told me “ Never Say Never when it comes to a Hawken rifle! “. When you think you have somewhat of an understanding of the architecture of the rifle, a variation has in the past and still may surface in the future?

Not all Hawken rifle’s were designed and destined to go west of the Mississippi. They also catered to local customers as well. Could explain the variations of architecture and caliber choice.

Will add though, we do see a trend in the evolution of the architecture from maybe a J&S Hawken up to the final stages and design of the S. Hawken that we’re familiar with my friends.

Lastly, there is excellent literature in either book form, web, or past topic’s right here on the forum.

Plenty to research to enjoy if you’re truly interested?

Respectfully, Cowboy
 
Did Hawken stamp other makers rifles that went through or were sold by the Hawken shop?
 
Did Hawken stamp other makers rifles that went through or were sold by the Hawken shop?
Don’t profess to know for sure? With that in mind, I wouldn’t think they’d stamp other barrels but their own. Even if it were to go in to be freshened up or re-rifled.

Just couldn’t see a custom builder putting their mark on someone else’s product? Even if repairs were made.

Their mark ( Stamp ) denotes their quality and reputation. They’re known for their quality rifles with specific characteristics. The business’s livelihood is dependent on that stamp that carries their name.

Lastly, even today, It would be hard pressed to find a smith or business that would put their
logo or mark on someone else’s work? Even if it was sent in for repair or services.

Let me give you a personal real life example that I was directly involved with my friend.

Bought a beautiful custom Southern Mountain Rifle from a gentleman out of Utah.

The stock was ordained with silver and ivory inlays. Breath taking! Replacing the stock was definitely not an option. Was, and is a work of art.

During shipment the wrist was cracked! Only the trigger guard was holding the stock together.

Good friend of mine suggested Roy Stroh to do a professional brass wrap around the cracked wrist.

Gun was shipped to Roy for repair. He did a beautiful job by the way.

To the jest of the story now. While the complete rifle was in Roy’s hands, I naively asked him if he’d put his last name on the barrel? “ STROH”. My reasoning was it’s also my last name!

He said he’d do it, but I heard a hesitant tone in his voice. It dawned on me then that he really didn’t want to sign his name on someone else’s work. At least that was what I could gather by his hesitant reaction to my request?

In closing, I sort of pretended to change my mind and said that,” at second thought maybe I’ll leave it be?”.

He was uncomfortable and I respected that.

Respectfully, Cowboy
 
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I wonder if any half stock rifles were made as flintlocks

Not that I know of my friend?

But like plmeek once told me regarding the Hawken rifle. “ Never say Never when it comes to the Hawken rifle “.

Maybe not discovered as of yet? Nothing in known existence as of now that I’m aware of?

Respectfully, Cowboy
 
just what was the standard HAWKEN cal,50 or 54? I am shure that they would make it in any CAL. that a customer wanted.
 
Hi Phil Meek.
You list the 'California' Hawken as one of the brother's design.

Please describe what distinguishes the California Hawken.

Thanks much
Jim in La Luz
😎
 
You list the 'California' Hawken as one of the brother's design.

Please describe what distinguishes the California Hawken.
I was wondering if anyone would catch that and call me on it.

Researchers have found newspaper ads that W.S. Hawken and Tristam Campbell ran in 1855-56 that mention "Mountain and California Rifles made to order." Hanson transcribed one such ad in his book, The Hawken Rifle: Its Place In History, on page 42.

Mountain and California Rifles Hanson - The Hawken Rifle pg 42.jpg


At the time that Hanson's book was published (1979), he wasn't sure what a Hawken "California Rifle" looked like, though he noted that other gun makers at the time were using the term.

A possible candidate for a Hawken "California Rifle" was sold at auction in October 2019. The auction house, Morphy, had the rifle at the Colorado Gun Collectors Show earlier that year where I saw it.







This rifle is similar to those made by Horace Dimick and several other gun makers around the country in the 1850's and 60's, particularly in the shape of the trigger guard. This rifle is also brass mounted and only has one barrel wedge.

The rest of the rifle is classic Hawken. It's approximately .50 caliber, so it's not one of the small bore "sporting rifles" made for the local market.

I submit that it may very well be one of the "California Rifles" from the newspaper ads.
 
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Hi Phil Meek.
You list the 'California' Hawken as one of the brother's design.

Please describe what distinguishes the California Hawken.

Thanks much
Jim in La Luz
😎
Jim, you beat me to it!

I had seen the old advertisement in at least a couple of the standard references which mentioned "California rifles," as distinct from the "mountain rifles." I have often wondered exactly what these might be, and I even bought Shelton's Califonia Gunsmiths 1846-1900 in hopes it might shed some light. I know Henry Leman made a limited number of short, heavy fullstocks, similar in many features to his "Indian rifles" but in a larger caliber and with "Bear Rifle" marked on the barrel. I understand these were intended for the California market, during a period when the Golden State's famously oversized grizzlies were common.

Many of the rifles shown in the Shelton book would be considered "plains rifles" by anybody's reckoning, but it appeared to me that barrels tended to be a little shorter than the St. Louis mountain rifles, mountings were frequently brass, and the scroll-and-spur triggerguard, similar to the type associated with Horace Dimick's rifles, was a favorite. However, these are just my observations and assumptions. I would like to know what defined the "California rifles" coming out of St. Louis.

Thanks!

Notchy Bob

EDIT: Thank you, Phil! You posted while I was typing!
 
I too own a copy of, Shelton's Califonia Gunsmiths 1846-1900 and have noted on the MLF that there is a striking similarity of many of the rifles that were actually made in California to (dare I say it?) the Thompson Center Hawken, which is commonly berated as a "make believe gun".
 

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