Smoothbore accuracy

[crankshaft]

I thought expensive, and how wants to hunt squirrels and rabbits with a Sharps (cost).

 

[crankshaft]

Hey...you guys need to show up at a NMLRA shoot and get witnesses, and medals.

 

[hinamanra]

I've also wondered the same thing.
I believe the old Brown Bess used a .57 caliber projectile. Correct if that's not right, What gauge would that be?
My Dad had one of the better Browning Shot guns for both Duck or pheasant hunting. All my childhood rifles were 22, Larger calibers were considered to be dangerous and were to be avoided.

Dutch

I believe the Bess was a .75 cal, they did however use under size balls to ease loading in battle but I think it was more like .69

 

[FlinterNick]

I've also wondered the same thing.
I believe the old Brown Bess used a .57 caliber projectile. Correct if that's not right, What gauge would that be?
My Dad had one of the better Browning Shot guns for both Duck or pheasant hunting. All my childhood rifles were 22, Larger calibers were considered to be dangerous and were to be avoided.

Dutch

Brown Bess's were bored to .75-.77 caliber, they used any smaller than a .72 ball, 10 and 12 gauges. The military style paper cartridges were loaded with a .69 ball, or buck and ball, a .69 ball topped off with 3-4 .30 caliber smaller balls, buck and ball was one nasty shot, (keep that a secret from the liberals lol !).

 

[DaveC]

U.S. smooth bore muskets copied French patterns and were thus .69 caliber, approx. 16 to a pound/ 16 gauge. The projectile was often 19 to a pound, or approximately .643". Later, .65 caliber balls were used. There is one anecdote from Minnesota where militia broke open spherical case shot to use the .64 caliber lead shrapnel balls as musket ammunition.

Modern shooters often use much larger diameter lead balls, frequently roughened up to remove the sprue and to ensure that a coat or two or three of ALOX lube will adhere to the surface. For example, my Model 1842 sure seems to like a .672 ball with lube applied. I've got a mold for .670 round balls, but haven't used it yet.

For beetter accuracy the Bess might use a .715" or .72" although historically it would have been about .69"
U.S. musket ammunition as issued typically consisted of half single ball and half buck and ball cartridges. Some other armies used multi-ball loads, particularly the Swedes and Danes/Norwegians. In the case of Sweden, another .75-.80 12 or 10 to a pound musket user, there were double shot loads intended for use against cavalry.

 

[DaveC]

Frederick Gaede cited in, Journal of the Company of Military Historians, V.37 No.2, p. 98:

"our new [cartridge] boxes are with blocks bored for 26 cartridges of ball nineteen to the pound of stout leather ...."

So a 19-gauge .637"/.64" ball out of a 16-ga./.685/.69 cal. barrel.

British muskets were more like 12 to a pound or 12-gauge, and earlier muskets 10-ga.

 

[Rockvillerich]

U.S. smooth bore muskets copied French patterns and were thus .69 caliber, approx. 16 to a pound/ 16 gauge. The projectile was often 19 to a pound, or approximately .643". Later, .65 caliber balls were used. There is one anecdote from Minnesota where militia broke open spherical case shot to use the .64 caliber lead shrapnel balls as musket ammunition.

Modern shooters often use much larger diameter lead balls, frequently roughened up to remove the sprue and to ensure that a coat or two or three of ALOX lube will adhere to the surface. For example, my Model 1842 sure seems to like a .672 ball with lube applied. I've got a mold for .670 round balls, but haven't used it yet.

For beetter accuracy the Bess might use a .715" or .72" although historically it would have been about .69"
U.S. musket ammunition as issued typically consisted of half single ball and half buck and ball cartridges. Some other armies used multi-ball loads, particularly the Swedes and Danes/Norwegians. In the case of Sweden, another .75-.80 12 or 10 to a pound musket user, there were double shot loads intended for use against cavalry.

I attended a private smooth-bore snowshoe shooting match in up-state NY a few years back shooting a .69 cal. French pattern musket with .65 balls in heavy waxed paper cartridges with surprisingly good results. Froggy shot a little low, but very consistent, and actually a lot more accurate than I'd expected considering the odd stock shape and lack of proper sights.

 

[RAEDWALD]

I've also wondered the same thing.
I believe the old Brown Bess used a .57 caliber projectile. Correct if that's not right, What gauge would that be?

In the same size barrel as the Bess the Honourable East India Company in the 1840's used 0.685" ball in paper cartridges after a century of regular military use of black powder in the same size bore muskets. The final changes were going over to percussion and having rear fixed sights with positions for 50,100 and 140 yards using 4 1/2 drams of powder (125 grains). This allowed for 60 rounds to be fired without cleaning in hot and dry conditions. In actual actions far more were fired without cleaning. They were of 11 bore/gauge at 3/4".

 

[Darkgael]

In the same size barrel as the Bess the Honourable East India Company in the 1840's used 0.685" ball in paper cartridges after a century of regular military use of black powder in the same size bore muskets. The final changes were going over to percussion and having rear fixed sights with positions for 50,100 and 140 yards using 4 1/2 drams of powder (125 grains). This allowed for 60 rounds to be fired without cleaning in hot and dry conditions. In actual actions far more were fired without cleaning. They were of 11 bore/gauge at 3/4".

It helps to remember that British tactics involved Volley fire. Pinpoint accuracy was not paramount...ease of loading and rate of fire were.

 

[tenngun]

A wounded enemy is the same or even better then a dead enemy, that’s the difference between hunting and war.

 

[Rat]

Modern shooters do tend to use a larger ball, but I'm finding/have found that the in my .75 caliber musket I get just as good results with a .690" ball. I have tried a couple of different sizes in the .72" range without getting better results. The theory that a bigger ball will be more accurate is not really true. It may hold true in a individual gun.

Small ball, thick patch, generally speaking is proving the most accurate for me. I don't think ball size is even very important, and some get great accuracy with bare balls and wadding. At 50 yards, one can get pinpoint hunting accuracy from a smooth bore, but you won't be firing 40 rounds without wiping. Yes, war is a whole other subject. After 50 yards, and certainly after 60 yards one won't be getting good hunting accuracy any longer. (with some guns being the exception to that, but certainly hunting accuracy will be gone by 75 yards.) At 25 yards, just about any ball and load will make just about any musket look accurate, but might be totally off the paper at 50 yards.

I have also found that the Brown Bess, and I assume any .75" smoothbore, or the .69 caliber muskets, is more accurate with a heavy load. Generally speaking. I have obtained greater improvements in accuracy just by going to a heavy powder charge, than any changes in ball size or patch thickness. Very unlike rifles, where accuracy deteriorates when the load gets too heavy. Muskets don't seem to have that "sweet spot" like rifles, and recoil becomes the limiting factor.

Just some thoughts, sparked by some of the most excellent comments above.

 

[RAEDWALD]

It helps to remember that British tactics involved Volley fire. Pinpoint accuracy was not paramount...ease of loading and rate of fire were.

The Sepoys and Company European troops were practiced at firing at these ranges and in actually using them in both general actions and small unit actions in line volley fire and individual fire. For those who have one of these the foresight/bayonet lug in the base of the notch is 50 yards, at the top of the notch/base of the semi circle 100 yards and lined up with the ears of the semi circle 140 yards. They were professional soldiers who expected to have to use their arms in action.

 

[54ball]

Musket...
A heavy military arm dating back to the matchlock era. With the addition of a bayonet, they are a pike that shoots.
Fusil....
This French origin term is sometimes found as, fuzee, fuzil and fuke. A fusil is a light Musket. The term originates with the adaption of the flintlock ignition system in the second half of the 17th Century. At that time Matchlock Muskets were relatively heavy and less mobile. The new flintlock fusils were more efficient, had a higher rate of fire and lighter. These early military flintlocks were excellent for specialized light troops, Fusileers. As the turn of the 18th Century approached, most armies had adapted the flintlock fusil as the main battle weapon. The Dutch pattern light musket or fusil eventually becomes the Brown Bess. Thereafter "fusil" refers to longarms lighter than standard military muskets. Officers Fusils could simply be scaled down versions of the standard musket. The term is also used for non military guns such as trade "fusils" and hunting...fuzees and fukes.
17th Century a Fusil is a light military flintlock...
18th Century a fusil is a light musket or smooth bore hunting arm.
17th and early 18th Century trade fusils, buccaneer, Dutch, French and English trade fusils are commonly found with a rear sight. Another aspect of the fusil is that although lighter than a military musket, it tends to be heavier than a fowling piece.
Fowling Piece or Gun...
A smooth bore arm designed primarily for wing shooting. These tend to be light, graceful and have long barrels. The line fusil and fowling gun can be quite blurred, especially in North America where the fowling piece would be commonly loaded with ball thus ...more like a general purpose fusil. A fowler is not a gun but one who hunts fowl.
Shotgun...
This general term primarily refers to civilian guns such as fusils or fowling guns. By the 19th Century shotgun was a general term for civilian smoothbores replacing fusil and fowling piece. It's possible the term dates to the 18th Century. Bakeless says in his 1935 biography of Boone, " The Shawnee took the hunting parties' hides, horses and rifles. They then provided them with an old shotgun(likely a trade Fusil) and hunting pouch with a warning, Never to return. This is likely from the Draper Papers.
Smooth Rifle...
This is a firearm that has all the characteristics of a rifle but with a smooth bore. These seem to be most prominent in PA. Lehigh Valley Rifles are commonly found smooth bored. On occasion some Lebanon and Lancasters are found smooth bored.
Buck and Ball gun...
A century earlier these would have been called fusils. These are smoothbored guns that can have a mix of rifle and smoothbore architecture, for instance round barrels, rear sights,crescent butts and cheek pieces. Primarily....early 19th Century.
Smoothbore...
This is a term for all the above.
Fort Stoddart (the Choctaw Factor 1805)...." Smoothbores are virtually unsaleable to the Choctaw, They want Rifles."

 

[Gene L]

A lot of factors fit in. A ‘smooth rifle’ with a heavy octagon barrel full length can shoot to eighty yards on par with a rifle but not as consistently. A military musket loaded with paper cartridge may miss a man sized target at a hundred yards twice in five shots, and only get a kill shot once in those five shots.
In general at twenty five yard you will shoot one ragged hole, at fifty six-eight inch groups .
From experiments I’ve see a smooth bore shoots better then,or at least as well as modern shot gun slugs.

I'd disagree. A modern shotgun with slugs is surprisingly accurate...not like rifle accuracy, but still in the ballpark. My bud in NC shoots in competition at 100 yards and gets most of them in the center of a silhouette target. And Hickock 45 shot one at over 200 yards at a man size silhouette and hit it about 80% of the time. The shotgun didn't have rifle sights, either.

 

[tenngun]

But,smoothies in early seventeenth century were competing at ranges of almost twohundred yards.

 

[Logcutter]

I believe that this expectation gets to us all time to time.

The question of what constitutes accuracy.

Is it minute of angle? ... maybe. Is it minute of pie plate? ... maybe.

As with beauty ... it is all in the eye of the beholder.

A meat hunter is satisfied with a pie plate ... 8 inch ... group at 75 or 100 yards. These groups have brought home backstrap for century's.

A dedicated to semi dedicated target shooter is horrified with anything group wise that wonders larger then an inch at 100 yards.

Our forefathers that were remembered as super hunters were less marksmen then they were woodsmen that understood the game, woods, and what is required for basic survival.

Super small groups are NOT required to bag game animals. Never has been! Snipers may be hunters but hunters not necesarilly snipers. Lets be clear here, the humane area of killing a small deer or pig is in the 8 to 12 inch size when shooting a large enough ball to do the " shot to the lights" kill shot.

Small game and birds has historically been taken with smooth bores shooting shot at under 40 paces.

Many meals have been eaten with these smooth bore guns. Both large game and small along with birds of any kind. Tons of smoke n sparks have been ejected from these weapons in fun and education.

Accuracy ... what is your use and expectant needs? Craft your gun and capability's using this measure. Smooth bore guns of all kinds have been in service for far more time and survival seasons then any suspect.

Customize your weapon for your needs and expectations. Smooth bores will serve accurately for most uses and REAL expectations now as have for the century's past.

Sound wisdom.

 

[Rat]

For hunting I've always believed in "minute of paper plate/pie plate". Whatever range I can keep them on the paper plate, is the longest range that I will take the shot. Simple but true. I don't think a smooth rifle is any more accurate than a smoothbore anything else. I'm thinking that it's very uncommon to get minute of paper plate at 80 yards with any smoothbore. Not impossible, just very difficult to actually achieve for most of us.

 

[FlinterNick]

For hitting targets better, I use a tight load. Coffee filter paper and hand salve cream works best for me. For paper cartridges I use baking parchment bc it doesn't stick to the inside of the barrel and doesn't burn. That usually gets me dead on target around 40 yards with a large caliber smoothbore.

 

[Rockvillerich]

A wounded enemy is the same or even better then a dead enemy, that’s the difference between hunting and war.

Very true, wounded combatants do pose more problems, but this wasn't factored into weapon development officially for another two hundred years.

 

[Dave Orchard]

AK Woodsman,
My 26" barreled 24 ga. Early 1700s style fusil has a teat sight mounte just back of the "wedding ring" on the 16- sided flat ahead of the oct breech section.
25 yd. groups are silver dollar-size w/occasional "flyer" out an inch or so,(Almost certainly my fault.)
Shot charges that pattern well duplicate lighter 28 ga. Cart. Loads.

I used coarser shot & more of it in my Charleville that is too heavy for me now.
Small, even-patterning shot & aim for head & neck, not bodies of smallgame.