Longrifles made in Pennsylvania?

[smo]

Which came 1st ? We hear a lot about the Longrifles made in Pennsylvania which leads most to believe that that area was where Longrifles originated. The Hot Bed so to speak ...A Friend of mine says :bull: .Of Course he's from Virginia . Soooo what say ye' ? The Chicken or The Egg ? :idunno:

 

[Pete G]

The original John Schreit rifle was made near Reading and is dated 1761, the earliest known American made longrifle.

 

[crockett]

It has always been my understanding that the "American Long Rifle" originated in Pennsylvania. How long they alone made these type rifles I don't know, it could have been that very early on other areas started copying the style. Probably southward. It seems to me that in New England and maybe Eastern New York State the fowler was a very common firearm, the rifles were more popular in Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Virginia- but that is just an impression.
All this was of course before mass production. I think the factory type operations like Henry, Tyron, Derringer- all that mostly got going around the 1820 time period. Prior to that it was the small shops. You read about the Lancaster Area being the "Arsenal of America" and since it is a rural/farm type area that doesn't seem possible but back in the 1776 era or before- I think that was the situation.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
The vast majority of known rifle makers during the 1750s-1780s century clustered around SE Pennsylvania, NW Maryland, and N Virginia. Most of those were in Pennsylvania. The earliest confirmed dated long rifle is from Reading Pennsylvania. The majority of existing American made rifles that are thought to be made during our colonial period are attributed to SE Pennsylvania. Even the famous Faber rifle can only be attributed to Virginia, though the attribution has some solid evidence based on the provenance of the gun. Lancaster was on a major trade route to the frontier, it also was easily accessible from the major port of Philadelphia. It was in an area heavily colonized by Germanic immigrants, some of whom are known to have been gunsmiths. Unless there is other newly discovered documented evidence of a southern origin for the American longrifle, the best claim is still that area around SE PA, N Virginia, and NW Maryland with emphasis on PA.

dave

 

[54ball]

The Moravians in North Carolina are also a viable candidate.
Wallace Gusler was once asked, "What is the best, most accurate history concerning the origin of the Pennsylvania/Kentucky Rifle?"

His reply....

"There is not one?"

 

[smo]

I will have to agree with you 54. I would tend to think since Virginia the colony was founded in 1607 & Pennsylvania the colony was founded in 1682 and rifling was invented in the late 15th century in Germany. It only stands to reason that there would have been rifled guns being built in the Virginia & The Province of Carolina est. 1663 long before those in Pennsylvania! :idunno: After all they were starting to mine iron ore in Virginia as early as the 1620's.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Smo,
None of what you said is evidence for rifle making. Not one piece. That does not mean rifles were not made early in Virginia but the info you provided constitutes no evidence at all for rifle making or the origin of the long rifle.

dave

 

[smo]

According to Wallace Gusler in The Early Rifles of the Shenandoah Valley rifled fire arms appear in Virginia in th late 17th century. However it was approx. 1730 to 1740 that significant numbers are recorded. Even 1740 would still be 40 years prior to Pennsylvania becoming a colony...

 

[dave_person]

Hi Smo,
I am curious, what are Wallace's references for that? Virginia was settled early by English. English produced very few rifles compared with the Germanic makers because rifles were not very useful to Englishman. Can Wallace actually identify one of these early Virginia rifles? Moreover, even if he can demonstrate a rifle in Virgina, was it made there? Did it contribute to the evolution of what we call long rifles? Is this all speculation by Wallace or is there written documentation like there is for the early PA gunmakers? I have great respect for Gusler but he is only one a number of fine long rifle historians. 54 mentioned Bethabara but that was settled a decade after the Moravians settled Bethlehem PA. Smo, you mentioned rifles were invented in the 16th century (the earliest is possibly 1503 I believe) and Virginia was settled in 1607 so it stands to reason that they made rifles before PA? How does that logically follow? New England was settled in the 1620's and they have no culture of rifles, why would Virginia? The chronology probably follows where the Germanic immigrants went who brought rifle culture with them. The English did not.

dave

 

[Stumpkiller]

Bethlehem PA, a Moravian [German emmigrats] settlement, was founded in 1740. Nazareth, PA the same year (near Allentown, PA in Northampton County).
http://bdhp.moravian.edu/bethlehem/bethlehem.html

 

[Zonie]

A map genealogical map of counties in the commonwealth of Pennsylvania shows Bucks, Chester and Philadelphia as the original counties in 1682.

Pennsylvania is one of the original 13 Counties and it was founded in 1681 as a result of a land grant to William Penn.

Maybe you meant to say, "Even 1740 would be 40 years after Pennsylvania became a colony..." ?

Of course 1740 is closer to 60 years AFTER Pennsylvania became a Colony.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

The Moravians were the gunsmiths who emigrated from Germany to America. They settled first in Pennsyvania, which is why you heard references to the Pennsylvania Dutch. These Moravians gunsmiths brought their Jaeger rifle-making skills with them and over the years the Jaeger slowly morphed into the very distinguishable American Longrifle. As others have noted, the Lancaster area was a hot-bed of these gunsmiths.

As expected though, people were always looking for new lands and fresh starts and the frontier beckoned to them. To help convince them to "give it a try", there was an easy avenue to move down into Southwest Virginia and the Carolinas as well as Tennessee and Kentucky. Originally this "avenue" was the warrior's trail and was used by native Americans. This trail quickly turned into what became known as "The Great Wagon Road" and was complete with way-stations and Inns along the way.

The path of the Great Wagon Road follows closely along what is now Interstate 81. It basically followed along the edge of the mountains from Pennsylvania down through the Shenandoah Valley into what is now the Roanoke, VA area. At this point the road split with "the Carolina Trail" heading south over the Blue Ridge Mountains, and the rest of the road heading west and north. Because of this road, Virginia's tidewater was settled first and the area along this road was settled next. After the area around the road was settled, then folks started settling the interior between the tidewater and the Carolina Trail - sort of a backwards migration.

In any case, a lot of the major rifle makers settled somewhere along this road. That is why we talk about Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Tennessee as being hot beds of rifle making at different times in our history. It was an easy and logical expansion route.

Please bear in mind that this is a general statement and there are LOTS of individual instances of rifle making elsewhere such as in Maryland and along the tidewater are of Virginia as well as up in New York. Nonetheless, it was a huge migration and the Marovians and/or their apprentices and descendants took their rifle making skills with them.

Twisted_1in66:thumbsup:
Dan

 

[galamb]

According to Wallace Gusler in The Early Rifles of the Shenandoah Valley rifled fire arms appear in Virginia in th late 17th century. However it was approx. 1730 to 1740 that significant numbers are recorded. Even 1740 would still be 40 years prior to Pennsylvania becoming a colony...

You can't equate "becoming a colony" to producing rifles.

Unless you are nit picking and saying that because it wasn't "Pennsylvania" YET, a rifle made there was not "actually" built in Pennsylvania.

(and since the region Gusler is referring to is now West Virginia, wouldn't it be more correct to say "West Virginia guns" not Virginia guns, since the area which like the area that "became" Penn, became W.Va at some later point)

In 1850 the Hachen brothers, both gun makers, emigrated from Switzerland.

Nicholas Hachen (later changed to Hawken) set up shop in Hanover and Wolfgang Hachen (later changed to Haga) set up shop in Reading.

If either of them ever actually built guns, as opposed to simply repairing existing guns, they certainly never signed one (although dozens have been attributed to Haga).

And I believe if you re-read the article by Gusler he does not state or even support the notion that the rifles present in the Shenandoah region in the late 17th century were "produced" there.

And the quote "1730 to 1740 that significant numbers are recorded" is footnoted. The footnote indicates that in a "1683 INVENTORY" a screw gun (early term for a rifled barrel) was noted and in 1702 a note referring to someone using a "rifle gun" was "recorded" - nothing about where they were made.

Gusler goes on to say that it wasn't until the 1750's that the American Rifle evolved (which is
when Haga "may" have started building rifles in Reading and Haymaker, who would have been in his late teens in the early 1750's, "may" have started building rifles in Frederick Virginia - of course there were others, but these are two examples).

Gusler goes on to say that in the period between 1725 and 1750 there is "insufficient evidence" to conclude than any rifle was actually made in the colonies.

(you have to be careful when quoting an article to not take excerpts that support one position only if you exclude the entire article)

 

[smo]

:redface: I'm not sure what I meant to say I haven't even had a drink tonight. :shake: Too much going on around here.(Freddy & Chucky and some Zombie dude at the door) I was thinking about when the Colonies were formed and when iron ore was first mined....I think??? I still fell like that with the Colony of Virginia being formed prior to Pennsylvania and the production of iron beginning in late 1621 or early 1622 at Falling Creek Ironworks and the area having a small German population.... it only stands to reason they would have made rifles.:idunno: Then if you read on in the writings by Gusler mentioned earlier he states... One Estate inventory in Augusta County Virginia of 1753 records "One long rifle gun & One short rifle gun . This indeed would be prior to the 1761 Schrite rifle. I'm not clear as to where Mr. Gusler got the info listed. :idunno:

 

[galamb]

I think he is noting that (they) were listed in an "estate".

The point he was trying to make, I believe, was that rifles were "present and used" NOT that they necessarily being locally produced.

(200 years from now someone is studying the US and assumes that "microwave ovens" MUST have been produced in the US in 2015, because there is evidence of them existing)

Just like today where it is not "economically viable" to build microwave oven domestically, in the very early years it was probably not viable to build guns.

Until the "supply" was disrupted and the style changed and the population grew to the point where there was "adequate demand" and then of course when they were required for the war, rifles and shotguns could be "easily and cheaply" sourced from the "mother lands".

There is no question that rifles of whatever description had made it over from Europe and were being used by the "new immigrants" that were settling the areas.

As people came over they brought their "important stuff", including their firearms with them.

At first there may have only been a limited market for a (new) firearm in the first place which still could have been adequately serviced by products coming from Europe.

So it stands to reason that those trained as gunmakers initially set up shop to repair the firearms that were available.

It wouldn't have been until (a little) later that maybe Ol' Bob walks into a "gun repair shop" and says to the owner - "do you think you could build me a rifle? the barrel on this one is too short etc etc) and the American rifle was born - not all at once, but over a span of perhaps a decade.

Although WE (today) somewhat romanticize gun making back when, it was almost certainly a tough job to make a living at. That is unless you also did any number of "other jobs" as your primary source of income.

Many of the "industrial census" taken back in the early 1800's show that most "gun makers" repaired three to six guns for every one that they made.

At the Hawken Shop you could get a "horse shoed". Caleb Vincent was "renowned" for repairing Spinning Wheels and Clocks which made up a far greater source of his income than "building guns" (although he "restocked" 10 for every one he produced new).

It's just dangerous to draw conclusions from super limited information and opinion.

Like the "original flint Hawken", perhaps a pre-1750 "domestically made" longrifle cant be found because "it never existed in the first place" - wishing it did, doesn't always make it so...

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The "long rifle" is NOT an American Invention.

(EGAD! Sacrilege! Burn Him; Burn the Witch!)

Folks, long barreled rifles were well known in Germany, as the Jaeger style was NOT the only style made. The Jaeger style made for a great hunting rifle style in the Germanic Woodlands, which were mostly not old growth forests. Immigrants thought that style would be the best in America, so it was imported here...

The Germanic gunmakers arrived from Germany with the knowledge of the application of longer barrels, longer sight planes, and smaller calibers. The differences between the types of woodlands drove the Germanic rifle makers to apply what they knew to better suit the hunters in America....and the American Style of long rifle appeared...what we normally mean when we say "longrifle".

For those who think non-Germanic settlers such as the English would have introduced rifles, well Jamestown was founded in 1607, why would they not bring rifles THEN if it was part of their hunting or military tradition? "Jäger " first appears as the name for specific soldiers in Hesse in 1631, demonstrating that it was so much part of the German culture that there were enough free men with rifles to form military companies of them.

German princes were paid extra funds if they mustered companies of riflemen in addition to musket regiments for the AWI...and those Jaeger companies were comprised of men who used personally owned rifles. Odd if such a tradition of rifles and riflemen existed in England and with English gunmakers for this to have happened.


LD

 

[54ball]

The "long rifle" is NOT an American Invention.

Neither is the patched ball or patch box.

The study of early rifles in America is so convoluted, it's pretty much impossible to give it a brief and concise history without leaving things out and out right dismissing others that don't fit the order. The brief and concise histories are for our(Moderns)convenience and may only be a faint reflection of actual history. The more I study, the less I know.

It's like looking at road map...Point A to point B. A simple map over a large area the route is defined. Now when you zoom in block by block the route is not so defined....hundreds of side streets, trails, lefts, rights...it's not so simple block by block, street by street.

A lot of the folks telling you that you must make the left at Albuquerque may be as correct as the folks saying "No you take a right at Walla-walla." Both views can be right and both can be wrong...it's the context.

I do believe it was Spence who had a reference of a shipment of rifle barrels imported to Boston in the 1720s. Boston is not usually associated with anything rifle, especially that early.

Many biographies mention Boone's boyhood(1750s) rifle as being an "English Short Rifle".

Another factor you have to have for the American made Rifle is American Industry. Iron where did it come from...a mine, a forge, shipped in...you have to have some kind of industry to supply and/or refine the materials.

While the Germans are associated with "gunsmithing/rifle building" The English are associated with foundries, mining ect ect.

What roll did the Hanoverian Kings have in Germanizing the English. We know that George III was a firearms enthusiast.

Was there really an evolution? Today suppliers have the "Transitional Kentucky" rifles...the missing links so to speak. Could it be that these steps in the evolution are merely just a style, contemporary with other "styles"?

We do know that the rifle really comes on between the years 1750-1775. This also corresponds with the height of the Deerskin Trade and the development of domestic industry and trade/migration routes. That is looking at the map from afar though.

 

[Artificer]

FWIW, information I received at the Colonial Williamsburg Gun Shop over the years stated that Pre-Revolutionary Virginians in the Tidewater and Piedmont Regions often used English Rifles of varying quality, depending on what their owners could afford. The Tidewater and Piedmont regions of Virginia were more of a smoothbore culture, though there is some documented use of Rifles that far east. The rifles used in the Shenandoah Valley and into now what is "West" Virginia more often were German influenced Rifles. This because German or German descent gunsmiths moved down from Pennsylvania to take advantage of the desire of the "Rifle Culture" there.

Here is an example mentioned of an English Rifle and Gun made by Turvey and used in the Eastern Piedmont of Virginia.

Colonel Phillip Ludlow Lee of Stratford, Virginia. (1727-1775)

"Col. Phil also enjoyed hunting. The inventory of his possessions included “1 Rifle new made by Turvey” and “1 new Turvey,” as well as a fowling piece and a gun.57 The rifle and unspecified firearm were probably made by gunsmith William Turvey (II) of London. Most Virginia planters purchased locally-made rifles, but Col. Phil had sent to London to acquire one of the best rifles available at the time. Much more accurate than those made in the colonies, this rifle was used for recreational game hunting and target matches. Turvey rifles were elegant, artistic pieces, and an obvious status symbol in the colonies.58
http://www.stratfordhall.org/colle...e-revolution-philip-ludwell-lee-of-stratford/


Gus

 

[hanshi]

I think a major point has been missed; that being that a rifle that simply has a long barrel is not necessarily a "longrifle". The actual American longrifle, regardless whether it came from Va, Pa or Tn, the American longrifle was at least subtly different from any early European patterned rifles. In it's evolution one sees the gradual falling away of early rifle characteristics; particularly characteristics connoting European heritage.

 

[don hepler]

Will this war ever end????????