Jaeger Barrels with One Twist in the Barrel Length?

[Tacksman45]

Hi everyone,

I have been reading over posts here on the forum trying to understand Jaeger rifles, and I have a few questions. I am curious about the original Germanic Jaeger rifle barrels which had one twist in the length of the barrel. I have talked with Bobby Hoyt before about this, and he explained to me that jaegers would fine tune their powder loads to find the exact amount and grade of powder to optimize there rifles. From what I think I understand, when firing patched round balls slower twists like 1:66 are more accurate but require more powder to be accurate, while faster twists like 1:48 require less powder, but tend to be less accurate? Also I understand that the depth of the rifling is a factor in this equation. So my question is; what was the reason for having the one twist in the length of the barrel? Also how common was this twist rate in original Jaegers?
Also I know there are a ton of myths about Jaeger rifles, and I have heard quite a few of these myself. I have heard that "original" Jaeger rifles frequently had very large bores in the .70 to .80 range, which combined with the very fast twist, made them capable of 300-400 yard or longer shots because of the inertia and mass of the ball (not saying I believe this, just what I have heard.) I know from what I have read that most Jaeger rifle bores were not this large, but is there any truth to the idea that; fast twist, groove depth, shorter barrels, larger bores, and a specific (perhaps smaller and finer) powder charge can add up to a high degree of accuracy and power?

Thanks a lot!

Tacksman

 

[billraby]

That does not really sound right. Round balls don't need to spin as fast as conical bullets. One twist in the length of a Jaeger rifle sounds like something you would see on a modern rifle that has batteries somewhere on it. a 48 inch twist would be good for a small caliber rifle. a 66 inch twist would be good for around 58 caliber. I am working on a 4 bore now that has a 104 inch twist. Rifles that size would have have a twist of 144 inch or more.For round balls you want a slower twist rate for larger bores.

 

[R.J.Bruce]

A lot of original Jaeger rifles were quite short, so as to be used primarily by the wealthy nobility in hunting wild Eurasian/Russian boar from horseback. Barrels on these Stutz (have I got that correct?) ranged from 12" to 21" long.

Regardless of the barrel's length, most were rifled at a rate of one twist for the length of the barrel. These guns were intended to be fired at very short ranges. On horseback, or dismounted in steep terrain. With patched balls, not conical bullets.

Those here with more experience with Jaeger rifles will chime in, but if I recall correctly, a twist of 1 turn in the length of the barrel was still pretty common for longer barreled jaegers. A twist of 1:48" was about maximum, regardless of the barrel's length. Which seldom exceded 40" long, usually a bit shorter. The rates of twist longer than 1:48" evolved after the barrels for rifles lengthened in America, and the quality of black powder increased.

 

[oldwood]

From what limited materials i've read , Jager rifles in central Europe were frequently used to shoot boar , and deer from a blind , over bait. No great distances here , just deliver a ball of large diameter so tracking a wounded animal might not be necessary. Perhaps one small part of a puzzle...oldwood

 

[Rudyard]

Well I own an old military Jager (cant do the dots ) its very near 1in28' it was one of the Prince Eugiens's Rifle Regt c 1800 Shot it many years at Bisley MLAGB Short range champs on Short Siberia placed bronze & silver never managed the gold. usual best ten of 13. 100 yards prone inside 30 minets most reliable on' figure of a man' but no target rifle which of course was the idea they all had a sword B net there is one a Leeds RA .very like the Nepaulese ones I seem to recall ..There where 1,012 made and paid for by UK ordnance dept. Prince Eugine being ruler of the Dutch but in Exile while Boneparte held the Netherlands . I digress but its still related topic .( My E machine cant spell for toffey! ).
Rudyard

 

[oldwood]

Rudyard........When you shot prone position , did someone assist you loading your muzzleloader , or did you get up and down , load and shoot??? Guess i'm old and just thinking about the up and down makes my arthritic legs hurt. ....oldwood

 

[Larry Akers]

I have been interested in and have been studying jaegers for over 30 years. I have an antique jaeger barrel, 29" in length, about .75 cal. rifled with one turn in the length of the barrel. Why one turn in the length of the barrel? I can't answer that but can conjecture that with the limited knowledge of ballistics, calibre, quality of powder and the use to which the gun was put--short-range hunting, that rate of twist worked. Early jaegers did not use a patch but were loaded by hammering an over-size ball down the barrel. A fast twist would work with a barrel so loaded. The use of one twist in the length of the barrel would have been perpetuated by the apprentice following the master's practice. As the understanding of ballistics increased, the rifling pitch of round ball guns decreased. By 1800 the rifling pitch of military jaegers, ie the British Baker rifle, had increased to as much as 1 turn in 120 in. for a .62 cal. weapon. Eventually, rifling pitch came to be more calibre-specific than length-of-barrel-specific.

 

[oldwood]

Larry , Thanks for the info about Jaegers. The first original Jaeger rifle I found was in a a neighbor's collection about 1970. Back then , I knew next to nothing about muzzleloaders of any kind. The wood was of a light color with birdseye , and tortoise shell figure. Only one word for the stock wood....Magnificent. A blond wood was used due to the tiny , 4-mm across bicolor flowers with blue ,yellow , and red centers and green petals. I've seen only one other original rifle decorated like this one , and it's was a longrifle with origins unknown to me. The neighbor's Jaeger rifle was supposedly a soldier's war souvenir sent home from Europe. Sadly , the neighbor died in his front yard at 35 years of age , and I lost touch with the family. ............oldwood

 

[Bucolic Buffalo]

I failed to think of measuring the twist on this one. From the muzzle, it is slow. Rifling looks to go in quite straight. Overall length is similar to my CVA Mountain Rifle. This is a 40 caliber. In watching these files load, I think they are gonna be big. Sorry.

 

[Larry Akers]

BB your rifle is not a jaeger but a german (could be swiss) target rifle ca. mid 1800's.

 

[rich pierce]

It would be unusual for a small gunsmith shop to have multiple rifling benches set up for different twists. It’s a fair bit of labor to make the long wooden “screw” for a rifling bench. The “one turn per length of the barrel” may be somewhat coincidental.
Regarding fast twists- often used in pistols because of low velocity. RPMs is what really matters in stabilizing. So with lower velocity a faster twist over distance traveled is needed. This suggests that in boar guns and such, big balls with lower charges were favored.

 

[Bucolic Buffalo]

BB your rifle is not a jaeger but a german (could be swiss) target rifle ca. mid 1800's.

What makes a Jaeger Rifle? I must say, I really do not know. This example, which unfortunately, is not mine. Does have the butt plate I often see on Jaeger rifles. But the stock does not drop as much as some. I always thought that this one was little different than many USA made short stock rifles. Except for all the bling.

It's Austrian. My guess as well is mid 1800's. My father once owned it. I was graciously allowed to see it again and take some pics on the iPhone. The maker's name is shadow boxed. Interesting detail. You can just see some damage to the hammer from a drop.

 

[Larry Akers]

BB, a jaeger rifle, by definition, is a hunting rifle. Jagd is the german word for the english word hunt. The german word "jaeger" is one who hunts. The rifles used for jagen (hunting) came to be known as jaegers. The rifle you show is a beautiful example of a schutzen target rifle, so called for the schutzenfest (shootingcontest) matches in which it was used. These rifles were used in off-hand matches and the the hooked buttplate gave cantilever support under the armpit. The triggerguard is classic schutzen as is the base for a peep sight seen on top of the wrist behind the breech. The front sight is adjustable for windage--definintely a target rifle feature. The barrel has been fluted to enhance the balance of the gun. Not seen, but may be present, would be a threaded hole in front of the triggerguard to affix a palm rest. Schutzenfests were a very popular spectator sport in the last half of the 19th century with the winners taking home large monetary prizes and attaining hero status. It is also possible the intended projectile for your rifle is a bullet and not a round ball. The rate of twist would give a good clue. Georgeous gun!

 

[Tacksman45]

It would be unusual for a small gunsmith shop to have multiple rifling benches set up for different twists. It’s a fair bit of labor to make the long wooden “screw” for a rifling bench. The “one turn per length of the barrel” may be somewhat coincidental.
Regarding fast twists- often used in pistols because of low velocity. RPMs is what really matters in stabilizing. So with lower velocity a faster twist over distance traveled is needed. This suggests that in boar guns and such, big balls with lower charges were favored.

Hi Rich!

Thanks for the reply! So in order to have a higher velocity projectile in a Jaeger barrel you would need to have a slower twist in the barrel such as 1:66 and use a larger powder charge? If you were to load a fast twist barrel with a large powder charge the friction will shred the patch and push the ball out without imparting the necessary amount of turn to the ball? Or is it kind of like the snatching the table cloth off a full table party trick where the cloth is moving across the table so fast that the friction does not impart energy to the items on the table?

Thanks a lot!

 

[GoodRabbitPilgrim]

I enjoy this channel, he talks about the jagers here.

 

[Zonie]

What makes a Jaeger Rifle? I must say, I really do not know. This example, which unfortunately, is not mine. Does have the butt plate I often see on Jaeger rifles. But the stock does not drop as much as some. I always thought that this one was little different than many USA made short stock rifles. Except for all the bling.

It's Austrian. My guess as well is mid 1800's. My father once owned it. I was graciously allowed to see it again and take some pics on the iPhone. The maker's name is shadow boxed. Interesting detail. You can just see some damage to the hammer from a drop.

Jaeger rifles do not have the large, heavy hooked buttplate the rifle in your picture has.
Being a hunting rifle, their buttplates are simple affairs, usually like the butt plates found on other hunting rifles.

As was mentioned, the hooked buttplate on the gun in the photo is typical of a Schutzen target rifle.

 

[rich pierce]

Tacksman45,
Yes, a heavy charge with a fast twist would likely shred a patch or put more spin on a large ball than needed.
A colonial rifle made at Christians Spring in PA in the 1770s (plus minus) had a twist of about 1 in 36”. It was likely imported already rifled.

 

[Stophel]

My only old German rifle is ca. 1830, and has a barrel of about 16", I think. Been a long time, but as I recall, the rifling twist came out to be close to one turn in 32 or 36", or something like that.

I also have a Massachusetts rifle, ca. 1820. About .58 caliber, barrel is 41" long, I think (been a long time since I looked). The twist is about the same. One turn in around three feet or maybe a hair less.

Frankly, I'm not sure the twist rate matters nearly as much as people want it to. Everybody says "why, fast twists won't work with round balls!"... and yet, we see people with fast twist barrels that shoot round balls just fine.

 

[smoothshooter]

That does not really sound right. Round balls don't need to spin as fast as conical bullets. One twist in the length of a Jaeger rifle sounds like something you would see on a modern rifle that has batteries somewhere on it. a 48 inch twist would be good for a small caliber rifle. a 66 inch twist would be good for around 58 caliber. I am working on a 4 bore now that has a 104 inch twist. Rifles that size would have have a twist of 144 inch or more.For round balls you want a slower twist rate for larger bores.

What would have been wrong with a rate of twist that was one half rotation in the length of the barrel?

 

[Josephg]

What makes a Jaeger Rifle? I must say, I really do not know. This example, which unfortunately, is not mine. Does have the butt plate I often see on Jaeger rifles. But the stock does not drop as much as some. I always thought that this one was little different than many USA made short stock rifles. Except for all the bling.

It's Austrian. My guess as well is mid 1800's. My father once owned it. I was graciously allowed to see it again and take some pics on the iPhone. The maker's name is shadow boxed. Interesting detail. You can just see some damage to the hammer from a drop.

I never heard of Jaegers all having a one turn twist in barrel length. I like that Greek key gold inlay, BB. Reminds me of a Daniel Wurfflein rifle I have. From Furth Germany.