Early 1800 Shotgun - Belgian?

[Marplot]

Just acquired this at a gun show yesterday. Google shows Belgian 1810 plus. OAL 36", Barrel 21", trigger to butt cap 14". Dents in barrel. Overall seems to have been well-loved. I really like the patina. I may try to get the barrel dents out, but no idea how. No ram rod. I hope to replace the damaged nipple, clean it up and leave as is. If there was a way to bring out the damascus pattern without ruining the patina. Probably will not try to shoot it.

I am new to this forum and hopefully not putting up too many pictures!

 

[Marplot]

More pictures. Please identify my gun!
Could the barrel been cut off?


Parts are numbered 184 Serial number ?


Curious about the "40" or is it a "+0?"

 

[Sam squanch]

That was a high quality gun when new. Made 1840’s - 1860’s. I think. I’d shoot it!

 

[Rancocas]

First thing - did you check to see if it is loaded?
Yes that proof mark is Belgium, used from 1810 until about 1853. Since your gun is a percussion with a back-action lock I don't believe it could have been built any earlier than the 1840's. So, 1840's - 1853.
"Canons Damas D'acier", I think, refers something about the Damascus barrel, but since I don't understand Belgium I don't know exactly what it means.
Nice, fancy stock on it.
Your last photo seems to show a gap between the barrels and the breech. Possibly a "hook breech" type arraignment. But, the gap concerns me enough that I would not chance actually shooting the gun.
Just my opinion. I am certainly far from being an expert.

 

[Stykbow]

I am new to this forum and hopefully not putting up too many pictures!

No such thing boss! We like pics around here.

 

[Stykbow]

Sorry, double post.

 

[Marplot]

First thing - did you check to see if it is loaded?

Your last photo seems to show a gap between the barrels and the breech. Possibly a "hook breech" type arraignment. But, the gap concerns me enough that I would not chance actually shooting the gun.
Just my opinion. I am certainly far from being an expert.

I did check to see it it was loaded. There was some old wadding stuffed down. I used a four foot drill bit.

Second, it does have a "hook breech" arrangement.

Still looking where I can get some nipple sockets.

 

[French Colonial]

First order of business is to see if you can get the nipples out, since we do not know your mechanical aptitude or how much in the way of tools you have at hand it is hard to say if you should attempt this or have it done.

Then you can determine the thread size and pitch and get the correct nipples.

The dent in the barrel can be taken out, again not sure if you should attempt or have it done.

If everything is done and checks out, go shoot it and then you can hang it on the wall.

 

[Marplot]

I have some mechanical ability. I maintain a few antique cars. I have tools and ratchet wrenches, even a small metal lathe. I could make nipple remover sockets, but would rather just buy them. Where can I find these sockets?

Once nipples removed, I can check the thread, size and pitch, then determine to get the correct nipples. I would like the proper color to match my antique guns. Not stainless as these would be out of place.

I see special tools to remove the dent, but maybe better to have a local gunsmith do this. Tools are a bit expensive for a one-time repair.

Once repaired, to understand the proper powder, amount, wadding, shot and percussion caps that are needed. My guns are damascus and an improper amount could possibly be dangerous. I suppose I can get the supplies needed either at a gun show or local shop. Possibly can find a local knowledgeable person to mentor me through the process.

But I would start to remove and replace my nipples.

 

[Feltwad]

Just a straight forward restoration job .for the barrel ends these can be done using a tapered brass plug to lift the dents and rounded of with a rubber hammer , never use pliers to lift the dent it will split the barrel. If the dents are well down the barrel these can be lifted using the exact bore size brass plug on a brass rod . It is always best to remove the breech plugs for the hooked breech that have come loose through, the constant wear to the standing breech. These hooks can be welded to take up the movement between the back of the hook and filed for a tight fit to the standing breech
Feltwad

 

[French Colonial]

The first thing to do is to ignore everything you ever heard about Damascus barrels being unsafe.

Good condition Damascus barrels are perfectly safe when fired with loads (BP) they were built for.

Lots of Damascus barrels and some long rifles were destroyed when smokeless powders were introduced that exceeded their pressure limits and they got a bad reputation when grandpa shoved the equivalent of a goose load using smokeless down old bessie's muzzle and wondered why she came apart......must be the guns fault!

There are quite a few of us who still enjoy shooting original guns with reasonable black powder loads.

 

[Marplot]

Interesting article on Belgian guns
https://gerardcox.blogspot.com/2014/06/deciphering-belgian-proof-marks.html

 

[Sparkitoff]

There are hydraulic dent lifters available or a good shotgun smith should have one. That's the way to remove the dents. I agree with the tapered brass plug to true the muzzles. Seems like a small box wrench of the right size could get the nipples loose. Might need an angled handle to get more than a 1/4 turn. This could be something you make. If the barrels ring crisply and you don't see anything concerning in the barrels starting load would be 2/3 the bore diameter in grains equivalent. So, if the bore is .720 (12 gauge 18.4 as marked on your gun) you'd start with 48 grains by volume of powder with an equal amount of shot. That's a bit less than 3/4 ounce of shot. If all is well with that load, you have to decide how much more you're willing to load. Your next step might be 55 grains by volume of powder and 3/4 ounce shot. You can also increase the shot slightly but not the powder. More shot than powder tends to throw better patterns than more powder less shot. So 55 grains equivalent and 7/8 ounce shot might be your next try instead of bumping up the powder and shot at the same time. Depending on what you're trying to accomplish, 7/8 to 1-oz of shot with 60-75 grains by volume behind it should be more than adequate to break clay targets, take birds and small game and knock down some fun targets.

I would still not hold the gun with the first few attempts of firing. Strap it down and back away, using a remote trigger activation (string). Certainly better safe than sorry. If you successfully shoot a few shots of a certain load, you have to decide if you are comfortable and ready to hold the gun and shoot it.

 

[Marplot]

Feltwad, breech plugs seem intact. Nothing loose. No movement. But how to tell? Removing these, I possibly could do, but would want supervision. There is a gap. I think it is best to find a local gunsmith who can vet this possibility, also remove the dents. As to dents, I could fashion a brass plug on my lathe, thread for rod and put it down my barrell.
As to removing nipples, I can drill the damaged one and use an E-Z out. But better to find a nipple socket.

 

[Feltwad]

I have found that these nipples threads are 1/4 UNF, Has for the barrel dent lifter you need a skilled man for these because it is quite easy to turn a dent into a bulge .
Feltwad

 

[Marplot]

Sparkitoff, good info on the loading and also strap it down and remote triggering!

You mention "the bore is .720 (12 gauge 18.4 as marked on your gun)" I saw this, but thought it was a possible serial number, also marked on the side plates. The tubes - barrels look smaller than my modern guns. So it is a 12 gauge! Good to know.

I also see BP in different grades of "fine." or "XXX" need to get the proper grade.

My only real BP experience is in firing my Lantaka bronze cannons. These are earlier than 1600 and were often used as swivel guns with Malaysian pirates! Will post some pictures, later.

 

[11Bravo]

Tested two yesterday, this is how it is done by many folks. The tire gives, so less strain on wood than firmly lashing down.

 

[SOLANCO]

The first thing to do is to ignore everything you ever heard about Damascus barrels being unsafe.

Good condition Damascus barrels are perfectly safe when fired with loads (BP) they were built for.

Lots of Damascus barrels and some long rifles were destroyed when smokeless powders were introduced that exceeded their pressure limits and they got a bad reputation when grandpa shoved the equivalent of a goose load using smokeless down old bessie's muzzle and wondered why she came apart......must be the guns fault!

There are quite a few of us who still enjoy shooting original guns with reasonable black powder loads.

The now defunct Double Gun Journal ran mostly to unmentionables. That said, they showed many hunts and shoots with damascus barreled guns.

 

[Kansas Jake]

Given the 21” barrels and the lack of a front bead along with the lack of finishing to the barrel ribs on the muzzle end the barrels have most likely been shortened. Still it appears it could be a fun one to shoot if the barrels are solid.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Shortened 10 to 12".