Black Powder Quantity In 12g Signal Flare?

[Felonious]

Without giving too much backstory so I don't violate any forum rules, I'm curious as to how much black powder is used in a modern (plastic hull) signal flare. After they're shot, you can smell, and see, the black powder residue in the hull/barrel (in most plastic 12 gauge flares, the flare hull itself is the "barrel").

It seems that most flare companies don't publish specifications or load data.

From information I found online (forums, so it's all anecdotal) I've gathered that they shoot between 250-350 fps, and have a muzzle energy of around 35 ft lbs. According to a ballistic calculator, that would mean the projectile probably weighs somewhere around 150 grains.

Obviously, it being a plastic "barrel" and breach, I'm looking for the lowest possible pressures to attain a similar velocity. I'm also perfectly content with less so I don't blow my hand off.

My specific question is if anyone that knows how much powder, / grain size / type to load a flare? Any other load data would also be greatly appreciated.

Just to be clear, I have a zero intention of firing a real projectile from a flare gun, I also won't be modifying any flares or making anything that violates the law. I'm more just interested in how they're able to make them out of plastic, while still being safe.

Having a "flare" load for my black powder hunting shotgun could be incredibly useful if I'm in distress (I hunt alone, and in remote areas) though, and it would be interesting to see if it's possible.

 

[Felonious]

I'm curious as if to this topic was shadow-banned for being not technically a "muzzleloading topic". Although I disagree in the sense that in the way of flare pistol works, it is a type of BP muzzleloader. Or if people just genuinely don't know the answer.

Any response (no matter how useless) would solve the answer to my question, lol.

-Thanks guys!

 

[BackDraft]

I don’t know about it being shadow banned. I saw that you created the thread, and I saw where you posted the update. It may fall into 3 categories:
1. No one knows the answer.
2. Not sure if it crosses the line out of true MLs.
3. People are unwilling to help a felon potentially circumvent firearms law(s).

 

[Felonious]

I don’t know about it being shadow banned. I saw that you created the thread, and I saw where you posted the update. It may fall into 3 categories:
1. No one knows the answer.

Or I imagine wants to be held liable for any potential injury.

2. Not sure if it crosses the line out of true MLs.

That was my main theory. It's "technically" a ML, but that's REALLY stretching the definition. If anything, it would be more considered a modern muzzleload due to the primer in the center of the "barrel"

I just figured the guys on here were the people to ask, the information is almost impossible to find, so I wasn't expecting all that much help but it was worth a shot.

3. People are unwilling to help a felon potentially circumvent firearms law(s).

Not a convicted felon, btw. My username is an ironic joke to people who know me. I have a full pardon and rights restoration. Even though I'm allowed to own a modern gun, I don't because I'm more interested in black powder anyway. I think they're fun.

Also, where I live, a convicted felon is allowed to possess a signaling device (flare "gun" ). Again, I'm not a felon anyway. The only problem would be is if the felon uses it to commit a crime, and then it would become a deadly weapon. Just like a knife or rock. It would also be a illegal for a felon to convert a flare gun into a cartridge firing gun. There's plenty of videos of those blowing up in people's hands too, for anybody reading this and getting ideas, don't, that looks like something that dumbest s**t I've ever seen tried.

Legally, I'm unequivocally NOT looking to convert it into a "firearm", "destructive device", or a finger remover by attempting to shoot a lethal cartridge or explosive out of a plastic frame gun. There's no rocket fuel or flash powder either, I know both of those have a lot of legal issues, so I'm just avoiding them completely.

I think the main question is to whether it be considered a pyrotechnic device, or a signaling device, given that the loads I'm looking to put in in are just bright, and nothing else. Either way, without the use of certain chemicals, I'm well within my legal rights to attempt to reload a flare, for legitimate purposes.

 

[IanH]

So basically you want a signal load for your muzzleloader?

Honestly, the proper devices and cartridges don't weigh much and can easily be packed in the woods, that would be the better option. Even better than that is carry a device called a Spot Locator which will virtually guarantee rescue, or at least get the Civil Air Patrol circling your location long enough for you to wave them down.

 

[Felonious]

So basically you want a signal load for your muzzleloader?

That's half the experiment, yes.

Honestly, the proper devices and cartridges don't weigh much and can easily be packed in the woods, that would be the better option. Even better than that is carry a device called a Spot Locator which will virtually guarantee rescue, or at least get the Civil Air Patrol circling your location long enough for you to wave them down.

I didn't realize how cheap something like a spot locator was, I'll probably be grabbing one of those soon too. I see they have models now that let you connect to a phone and send a text message on the Iridium sat network. There's some freaking cool stuff out there now. I remember when I was in boy scouts, looking at the GPS beacons, and them being well over 10k You can get one of the spot locators for $50 on eBay now.

If anyone cares;

After some experimenting, and working up grain by grain, it turns out it only needs 5-10 grains (5 average) of Pyrodex FFg depending on the weight of the flare. I also was firing lightweight dummy flares with only the 209 primer only and they were going a a pretty good distance, at least 150ft.

I also figured out how to reload salt into the used flare hull. You just replace the 209, put a thin over powder card, some salt, and an overshot card. No actual powder needed to shred bugs at about 10 ft. It's like the bug-a-salt, but able to damage drywall.

 

[russellshaffer]

Don't buy a SPOT on ebay. They come out with new models and quit supporting the older ones. Check out the service plan costs too, before you buy. Personally I think it's worth it - I have the newest model and it works well.

 

[Felonious]

No injuries, thank goodness. I was wearing a face shield, welders jacket, and heavy leather gloves, so I don't know if there was any small shrapnel but there didn't appear to be any.

5 grains of 777, with 30 grains of rice.

I tried to reinforce the barrel with a piece of steel tube, apparently it didn't seal to the bottom and some of the pressure was able to push on the tube itself, I had cut the tube in half, and JB welded it together, JB welded the bottom of the pipe, and filled the very small (about 1mm) gap between the tube and plastic, it seemed like a solid unit. The empty flare hull separated at the gap, and I imagine transferred the pressure of the launchers "barrel". What's strange is that I'm able to shoot 10 grains of black powder over a 50 grain charge of rice with no issue out of the stock plastic.

The only thing that actually broke besides the "flare" itself was the hinge pin on the launcher, and seems relatively easy to fix with some super glue and a new pin.

Thought you guys would like to see a mildly comical update of my miserable failure.