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dolfinwriter

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My father just gave me this double barrel gun that has some origin in our family, has Damascus barrels, and is reputed to be Civil War era manufacture.

Seems like a dam shame, but what I have been told of its history is my grandfather wanted to buy it quite a few years ago, but the owner refused to sell. Instead it was allowed to hang in someone's barn and got rained in. In the winter the water froze and split the barrel at a couple of the joints, and certainly weakened both barrels throughout. Both barrels are presently full of some kind of debris, or maybe just rust. There was once a mud dauber's nest attached at the muzzle end.

Dad doesn't know any more than that about it.

The entire surface is rusted and pitted so badly that I can find no identifying markings, but there does appear to be what looks like a number 8 on one barrel, and some ornate engraving on the receiver on the center tang behind the hammer and breech area, and on what appear to be brass plates connected to what might be a recoil lug.

One hammer is missing and the stock is rotted and termite eaten.

My dad coated the entire thing with Tung Oil some years ago to prevent further deterioriation. He wound the copper wire around the barrels and handguard to hold it together (Not what I would have done, but it works).

I'll have to figure out how to post photos, but for now I'll have to use the links function.

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I doubt that it can ever be fired again without an expensive and therefore out of the question restoration that would basically replace every part. My questions:

1. Any information on manufacturer, model, etc.
2. What might this be worth in usable condition? What if it were in excellent condition?
3. If it has any value as it is, would I be better off to leave it alone or do some kind of partial restoration to make it at least LOOK usable? (Disassemble, derust and reblue, polish brass or at least clean, replace missing hammer, replace stock).
4. Are there any parts available for these? (such as the missing hammer and whatever mechanism connects it internal to the receiver).

I've read some comments here about the merits of sleeving Damascus barreled guns, but I'm thinking the best this thing will ever be is a wall hanger that LOOKS like a partially restored double barrel muzzle loader, WITHOUT copper wire holding it together. But in that condition I would want to render it harmless so that it could never again be fired by some curious person.
 
dolfinwriter said:
I doubt that it can ever be fired again....
You are correct. It will never fire again. Not without an extensive overhaul that will probably result in the replacement of almost every part. I mean, you really don't know if it worked when it went in the barn, do you?

If the exterior of the locks is any indication of the interior they will need to be rebuilt. Not cheap at all.

1. Any information on manufacturer, model, etc.
Impossible to tell. These guns were produced in various countries by the thousands.

2. What might this be worth in usable condition? What if it were in excellent condition?
This is the good news, it appears that it wasn't worth much before it suffered years of neglect. May be worth more now as a relic or wall art to the right person.

From the excess of wood under the locks and the overall architecture of the stock it appears the gun was restocked by an amatuer during its usable life time. It was only a utilitarian hunting gun in the first place and this would have devalued it further.

3. If it has any value as it is, would I be better off to leave it alone or do some kind of partial restoration to make it at least LOOK usable?

It's up to you, but to be frank, you'd just be polishing a turd and all that elbow greese would likely not add value. And the problem with restoring it to look like it is fireable is, as you indicated, somebody who doesn't know might try to fire it someday. You don't want that.

4. Are there any parts available for these?
Not likely you will find matching parts for this gun, but other parts could be made to work. I.M.H.O. you would just be chasing good money after bad on this one....it's just too far gone and was worth little before that.

Now, if it has sentimental value to you, nobody can put a price on that. But if it's just a firing condition or more presentable looking wall hanger you want, they are available by the bucket load for pretty reasonable prices. Saw one just yesterday at a flee market for something like $200.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but from the way you wrote your post I suspect you already knew almost everything I just told you. J.D.
 
reputed to be Civil War era manufacture.

It could date to that general time but I suspect it's post Civil War most likely 1870s.

It was not used in that war. If was in use in that time it was not as a military weapon. Some units of Confederate cavalry and mounted troops used doubles in a very limited manner during the war. Most of those guns were sawed off for use on horses. Since Confederate stuff is faked so much, even the value of genuine articles is quite low in recent years due to all the fakery. It does not matter for this gun as it is, is unlikely to have been was used in that war and there is no evidence to say it was.

I had a Smith and Squires double a few years ago and it was in shootable condition. It was checkered and the stock was most likely maple. All in all is was a fine English double. Squires being the maker, Smith most likely the importer.

Mine was in excellent condition made by a London maker but since those guns were imported by the thousands it's value was limited. A double from that time has to be in almost new condition to be worth over $1000.00. Most shooters if you want to call them that are in the $500 range, relics a lot, lot less. You have a relic.

Since it has such rough stock work the value of that gun would be limited even if it was in "shootable" condition. Like JD said it could be a re-stock or it may be a rough low grade gun stocked in somewhere like Belgium. It may have been stocked here in the United States from imported English or Belgian parts if so it was a very low grade gun.

One thing that's kind of ironic about these relic guns, The Better Homes and Garden crowd will sometimes pay many times it's value to decorate their home with a "priceless antique".
 
Thank you for your time in responding. I know next to nothing about black powder and muzzle loaders.
:bow:
It sounds like it has never had nor will it ever have any value to destroy by doing whatever I want to it. That was pretty much my instinct when I saw it, but it still would have been nice to find out it was something [strike]rare[/strike], I mean valuable.

I should have said that I stick mostly to WWII era guns and later (two M1 Garands, three Mosin-Nagant variants, captured Yugo Mauser, two Norinco SKSs, in addition to the normal complement of various modern and 40 year-old .22 rifles, a Delton AR-15 in 5.56 mm, Mossberg 500 shotgun, Hi Point .40 S&W Carbine, three Glock 17s, and a Yugo Tokarev 7.62 x 25 handgun).

Yeah, I guess I also kinda like the former Soviet bloc nation guns that I can still get cheaply, hopeful that one day they will be worth more and in the meantime are a lot of fun to shoot!

Yeah, the Mosin-Nagants originate prior to WWI and I am collecting parts to build a 1903A3 Springfield since I can't afford $700 for a complete one. And I would dearly love to get my hands on any model of GI Issue 1911 .45 that is safe to shoot.

I'm asking dad if this thing is in fact some kind of family heirloom and if it has any sentimental value to him. Otherwise sometime when I have no more important things to work on, it might be an interesting project in rust removal, polishing and bluing, and stock replacement and finishing. Sounds like I may be able to find a couple of locks and replace the existing (which I was calling hammers). I will probably rod out the barrels and fill them with some kind of resin or plaster of paris or something to prevent ever loading the thing.

THEN I would hang it over the fireplace without having spent a heck of a lot of money on it. If one of you guys come over, YOU will know it's really a piece of manure, but not many others will know. :wink:
 
I honestly think the best thing you can do with it, is find some nice gun hooks and hang her on the wall just like she is. Let her tell her story in her true voice to the imagination of all who view her.

One you polish this and replace that, you have changed her history, her mystery, our history and her look, honestly that's all she's got.

Sounds sentimental but do you see what I mean.
 
OK this is interesting and you may not have thought about, It just dawned on me.

Note how the left barrel has damage and that is also the side that's missing the hammer.

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It's very possible maybe even probable that after the barrel damage the former owner removed the hammer from that side and continued to use the gun as a single barrel.

That's what I mean by the history and mystery of that gun. To replace that would mean that gun would loose that history. The same with the rough stock work. All in all those features add history and interest.

One thing to keep in mind. It's very possible that joker could be loaded. I think it's been said somewhere that 3 out of every 10 found like that are indeed loaded.

Again I think you need to do nothing to it. I would not try to pop caps on it though.
 
I will give that some thought.

You may be right about the left barrel, but my dad said my grandfather told him that it had been full of water and then it froze and split the barrel.

Could be after THAT the owner removed the lock on that side. But why leave it still hanging there getting ruined? Maybe he had a wife who wouldn't "let" him have it in the house...? If my grandfather were still alive I could find out more about it.

I guess one of these days I'll have to find me one of those $200 muzzle loader deals with all the accessories if I want to shoot black powder.
 
I agree with 54 that it could be loaded, in spite of what you know about its history. A lot of old guns and especially shotguns, were put away with a charge in the barrel(s). You can find out easily enough by running a long dowel down the barrels, marking the dowell at the muzzle then laying the dowel along side the barrel. If the amount of dowell which goes into the barrel approximates the length from muzzle to breech plug face (you will have to estimate how far the breech plug goes in)it is unloaded. If laying the dowell next to the barrel indicates that there is significant distance between the estimated location of the breech plug base and where the dowell ends (lay the dowell so the mark you made earlier is next to the muzzle) then something is in the barrel. A neighbor of mine once bought a muzzle loading double at an auction. The gun was not quite as bad as yours but it was close and when I checked this for him both barrels were loaded. I pulled both charges for him before he hung it on the wall. You cannot be too careful.
 
Both barrels are obstructed, but I can't tell if it's just rust and debris or if they may have been loaded.

What is a safe way to pull those charges if they are loaded? Can they be pushed out from the breech somehow? Would it neutralize the powder to pour oil in the barrel similar to neutralizing a modern cartridge primer with oil, and then dig out whatever is down there with something non-metallic?
 
I would wet whatever is in there thoroughly with water, then use a rod with a worm attached to pull the wads out. Once you get the wads and shot out you can work on the powder with the worm. It may be caked in the bore but it will come out eventually. Given the condition of the gun you can do this without any real concern about further damage to it. Black powder remains volatile for a very long time. Avoid sparks at all costs and keep your face and body away from the muzzle. This assumes, of course that the gun is loaded versus being full of dirt.
 
Ok, last dumb question (I hope!)

What's a worm?

I know--the only questions that have ever bitten me were the ones I DIDN'T ask.
 
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