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Login Name Post: ID a lock        (Topic#308497)
TerryK 
40 Cal.
Posts: 139
10-11-18 12:12 PM - Post#1706545    


I think this question goes in this forum.
I am thinking of buying a custom rifle made by a company in North Carolina. The builder's web page looks competent so I am thinking of buying the like new rifle from a dealer, but it has an issue. Sometimes the set trigger will not release the cock.
I guess the problem could be inletting/binding, or bad / mis-adjusted trigger, or bad lock.
So I would like to ID the lock, and maybe even the trigger assembly for potential parts. The dealer is not familiar with flintlocks, but he was told the lock is a Siler. So please ID, and guess the problem. Is it a show stopper to buy into this known problem? I am hoping the trigger screw just needs adjusted, and the price is very fair.
I looked at new Chambers, and new Davis locks, and it looks like a Davis Manton to me.



 
Stumpkiller 
Moderator
Posts: 17592
Stumpkiller
10-11-18 12:40 PM - Post#1706551    

    In response to TerryK

I'm thinking an L&R Model 1700 (Which is a "Manton" style). It's a good lock.

"Don't take life too serious - it ain't nohow permanent."


 
Larry (Omaha) 
40 Cal.
Posts: 403
Larry (Omaha)
10-11-18 03:21 PM - Post#1706572    

    In response to TerryK

Terry,
I have two like that. One is a Dixie Gunworks made in Italy, purchased in the 70s and a L & R Manton. Have the dealer remove and ID the lock. He should be able to test the lock for you and verify if it works out of the stock. The set screw on the triggers is only going to give your front trigger more or less travel.
Flintlocklar
I dream of a 50XXXXX


 
TerryK 
40 Cal.
Posts: 139
10-11-18 04:18 PM - Post#1706577    

    In response to Stumpkiller

I meant to write LR Manton not Davis.

Naturally I don’t like the set trigger issue but the rest of the gun is winner for my taste. Crazy premium walnut, swamped colerain barrel, 7.5 pound jaeger.

Really the same rifle I want to have built. Knowing I can get parts or even a drop in lock is reassuring.


 
Grenadier1758 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2388
Grenadier1758
10-11-18 04:19 PM - Post#1706578    

    In response to TerryK

If the firing is a sometimes event, I would investigate the inletting of the sear. It is possible that the lock bolts have been over tightened pulling the tip of the sear into the lock mortise.

So, how deep is the lock pulled into the stock? The lock plate should be slightly proud of the stock. Remove the lock and look for a rub in the stock where the tip of the sear might be rubbing. You can shorten the sear slightly. The sear needs only to be long enough to be over the trigger lever that strikes it.

Probably not much of a problem. I replaced the sear on one of my locks and I decided to shorten the length of the sear rather than deepen the mortise.

Look to see if the trigger lever is rising enough to strike the sear. It probably is since it will fire sometimes.

 
Dave Person 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1926
10-11-18 04:57 PM - Post#1706585    

    In response to TerryK

Hi,
I will give you my honest assessment. The lock is an L&R small Manton or what Track of the Wolf sells as their "Bailes" lock. I have worked with quite a few of these and their bigger cousin, the Durs Egg lock. I am no fan. They can be made to work well but that requires quite a bit of fitting and tuning. The internal and external parts are not very robust. Second, if the gun purports to be a German Jaeger, and I base that on the appearance of the trigger guard, that lock is horribly incorrect. I would suggest the maker has little idea what a Jaeger is. The wide lock moldings alone indicate the builder is not very knowledgeable or very skilled. With respect to the set triggers, it may be that the screw holding the main spring in place needs to be tightened so the spring exerts more pressure on the secondary sear, which pops up to hit the sear on the lock. That is something the maker should have tested and adjusted before offering the gun for sale. Not a good sign.

dave

Edited by Dave Person on 10-11-18 05:03 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Zonie 
Moderator
Posts: 26754
Zonie
10-11-18 05:17 PM - Post#1706589    

    In response to TerryK

Does the lock release like it should when you try to fire it without setting the rear set trigger?
That is, does pulling the front trigger release the cock every time you try it?

If it does, the problem is probably not with the lock. More than likely, it is with the spring load on the rear trigger like Dave mentioned.
It might also be due to the blade on the rear trigger (Dave called it the secondary sear), hitting some wood in the mortise at about the same time it is hitting and releasing the locks sear.

It doesn't sound like too big of an issue but it might prove to be worth some money to you if you can get the dealer to lower his price.
Just Jim...



 
NorthFork 
40 Cal.
Posts: 101
10-11-18 05:47 PM - Post#1706591    

    In response to TerryK

I am NO expert. Don't claim to be one. That said, that is the wrong lock for that rifle if the rifle in question is the one pictured. It absolutely looks out of place. Google what an original or good reproduction Jaeger rifle looks like. Care to name the builder?

 
Zonie 
Moderator
Posts: 26754
Zonie
10-11-18 06:24 PM - Post#1706594    

    In response to NorthFork

Yes, it is the wrong lock for a Jaeger rifle but that only gives Terry another reason to ask the seller to knock the price down if he isn't planning on reenacting or he is happy with the rifle.
Not everyone cares if their rifle is an exact copy of a historical gun.

Now, if he does care, that is a horse of a different color and he might want to continue his search for a long rifle.
Just Jim...



 
NorthFork 
40 Cal.
Posts: 101
10-11-18 06:34 PM - Post#1706596    

    In response to Zonie

I don't reenact myself. So I don't need my stuff to be perfectly HCPC. I often let things slide with my gear simply because I like what I have even if it's 'wrong'. Sometimes for me close enough is just fine. But there is something 'off' with the looks of the rifle pictured. I hope for the OP's sake that all that's wrong with it mechanically is something simple and he can get a good deal on a rifle he likes.

 
TerryK 
40 Cal.
Posts: 139
10-11-18 07:46 PM - Post#1706610    

    In response to NorthFork

The builder is Kevin Blevins of Phoenix Mountain flintlocks in NC. This is a second hand rifle from a dealer not interested in flintlocks. The price is 1085.00.
Because I am a novice, I had some bad luck with buying flintlocks. Actually Dave graciously tuned up a Davis lock that was a real pig and turned it into a gem. So that ended well, but it was a nightmare until I had the right man basically reconstruct it. So I want to avoid headaches.

I am not locked into historical accuracy, BUT historically accurate designs are probably very very functional. I have faith that craftsman today and craftsman of the past have very good reasons for functionality of their designs. I do not have expertise in this area so I super appreciate the commentary. I think it is important to conduct constructive criticism and constructive praise.

Below is the description from the dealer:
Built by Phoenix Mountain flintlocks in NC
-6.5 pounds
-The gun, including the buttplate is a copy of an original marked 1768
-sometimes but only when using the set trigger, the hammer won't fall all the way. Not sure why and haven't taken the lock apart to examine
-Silver inlays
-Beautiful gun and workmanship stocked in incredible black walnut








 
Dave Person 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1926
10-11-18 08:15 PM - Post#1706613    

    In response to TerryK

Hi Terry,
I am very skeptical the the gun is a good copy of any original dated 1768. First, the English lock is from the 1780s and 1790s, the butt plate is French, the trigger guard is German, the side plate may be French. The stock architecture is very crude. I would have to see photos of the original to be convinced about the claim. With respect to the lock catching at half cock, it sounds like the fly is missing or dislodged from the tumbler. L&R locks have a bizarre arrangement for mounting the fly and it can easily get lost or dislodged.

dave

 
TerryK 
40 Cal.
Posts: 139
10-11-18 08:41 PM - Post#1706618    

    In response to Dave Person

Dave, The only information I have is the ad and a couple of PMs to the dealer. He told me this is the story he got, but he admits he has no idea. He was told the lock was a Siler, so other truths may be lacking. The alleged maker does not currently list a Jaeger-ish offering, so that may be BS also.
I certainly believe your assessment, and I really want to stick to Chambers locks now. I don't want a marginal design.
I have to admit that I liked that wood. I am not really a AAA wood guy, but it is pretty. Rough hunting terrain here, and nicer wood gets smashed quicker according to Murphy's law.

 
NorthFork 
40 Cal.
Posts: 101
10-12-18 06:15 AM - Post#1706642    

    In response to TerryK

This is only my opinion ok, just my opinion if I was in your shoes looking at/handling the rifle. And I am basing this opinion on the pics you have provided, the description you provided and the builders website or lack there of.

I would pass on this rifle.

I think you could find a nicer/better built rifle with no mechanical problems for the same money ($1000-$1200) by waiting and looking at the various online classifieds and websites like Track of the Wolf.

 
Flint62Smoothie 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1476
Flint62Smoothie
10-12-18 07:32 AM - Post#1706648    

    In response to NorthFork

  • NorthFork Said:
I think you could find a nicer/better built rifle with no mechanical problems for the same money ($1000-$1200) by waiting and looking at the various online classifieds and websites like Track of the Wolf.


I’d contact Tip Curtis and buy a gun-in-the-white from him!
All my MZLs will shoot into a ragged ~1/2" hole ALL DAY LONG... it's just the 2nd & 3rd shots that open the group!


 
smo 
70 Cal.
Posts: 4061
smo
10-12-18 07:40 AM - Post#1706653    

    In response to Flint62Smoothie

That was my thought as well
Good Luck & Good Shootin'
Smo


 
Grenadier1758 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2388
Grenadier1758
10-12-18 08:10 AM - Post#1706656    

    In response to TerryK

I think we are all in agreement that the lock is not a Siler. The lock panels are way too wide and parts together don't match up to a 1768 built rifle, well maybe stock profile.

I do like the curl in the stock and the light weight for a handy rifle, $1085 is way too much for this parts collection in the mind of a frugal grenadier.

L&R locks have a removable fly that can installed two ways. If the set trigger release results in the hammer catching at half cock, then the fly needs to be turned over. (I got the fly lecture when I ordered a replacement fly from L&R). Needless to say, it is not apparent that there is right and wrong installation for the fly.

 
NorthFork 
40 Cal.
Posts: 101
10-12-18 08:58 AM - Post#1706666    

    In response to Flint62Smoothie

Yes, I forgot about that possibility as well. An in the white flintlock would be in that price range as well.

 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 14825
Rifleman1776
10-12-18 09:32 AM - Post#1706673    

    In response to Dave Person

  • Quote:
I would suggest the maker has little idea what a Jaeger is.



I agree. And, sadly, no excuse for that. There is a wealth of information and pics available to educate oneself, especially a builder, on what a Jaeger looks like. As beautiful as the wood is on that rifle it looks thick and clubbish heavy to me.

 
TerryK 
40 Cal.
Posts: 139
10-12-18 10:52 AM - Post#1706690    

    In response to Rifleman1776

Again I am very grateful for everyone's input. I am going to pass on this rifle.
If anyone knows of an appropriate Jaeger, please send a PM. I am not limited to 1000.00, and I am not in an immediate rush.
I guess it is a Ford/Chevy thing, but I really think a Chambers lock is the way to go for me.

 
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