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Login Name Post: Fort Pillow and more.....        (Topic#308329)
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 15524
Colorado Clyde
09-30-18 12:37 PM - Post#1704785    

    In response to Artificer

  • Artificer Said:


There were MANY people in the North and in the Border States who did not personally vote for and wanted NO PART of "Mr. Lincoln's War," either. As such they were also "held hostage" by your argument. My own family in Kentucky was but one example.

There were enough people in the North who had grown so tired and so disgusted with the War that Lincoln came close to not being re-elected. They were also held hostage by your argument.

Of course the HUGE Draft Riots in New York and other places also showed many people in the North believed they were held hostage to the War. (And yes because I am interested in historic accuracy, there were a good number of people in the South who also did not want to be drafted.)

Gus



I agree with all of that, with one notable caveat....Everything you wrote took place after the south seceded and started the war....

I was talking about southerners not having a choice in the matter beforehand. Their leaders led them to their destruction....As is often the case of the rich and powerful...We are merely pawns for their amusement. Rich Southern slave owners viewed common white people in the same regard as their " black property".


 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 15524
Colorado Clyde
09-30-18 12:40 PM - Post#1704786    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

If the south was truly fighting for it's rights, then it lost before the war ever began....Secession made sure of that.


 
Artificer 
Cannon
Posts: 7872
09-30-18 12:59 PM - Post#1704791    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

  • Colorado Clyde Said:

I was talking about southerners not having a choice in the matter beforehand. Their leaders led them to their destruction....As is often the case of the rich and powerful...We are merely pawns for their amusement. Rich Southern slave owners viewed common white people in the same regard as their " black property".




Rich/Powerful people in the North also had no qualms about starting the War, including by the first act of War of resupplying/reinforcing Fort Sumter after the North had agreed to peaceful evacuation. They had no qualms about what would happen to the people who actually fought it.

Rich Northerners considered their factory workers as "throw away labor" before the War, and of course since they and others made so much money off the War, had no qualms about supporting it and sending others off to War.

I will agree that the Hot Heads in South Carolina wound up giving Lincoln and other powerful/rich men in the North the EXCUSE to get the War going, which is exactly what Lincoln and other War Mongers in the North wanted by first agreeing to peaceful evacuation of Fort Sumter and then the treacherous Opening Act of War by sending a fleet to resupply/reinforce Fort Sumter. They knew they could make it look like the South had done the first hostile act of the War and that's exactly the way it was promoted and advertised in the North at the time and covered up in the Official Records and most historic references.

Gus


 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 15524
Colorado Clyde
09-30-18 01:26 PM - Post#1704798    

    In response to Artificer

If I recall correctly , Lincoln's own diary confirmed that he did not want war.


 
Artificer 
Cannon
Posts: 7872
09-30-18 03:08 PM - Post#1704822    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

Maybe that was from the time BEFORE he authorized the treacherous first act of War?

Gus

 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 15524
Colorado Clyde
09-30-18 03:28 PM - Post#1704828    

    In response to Artificer

  • Artificer Said:
Maybe that was from the time BEFORE he authorized the treacherous first act of War?

Gus



Lincoln did not declare war on the seceded states. As far as Lincoln was concerned, the Confederate States of America was not a separate nation at war but a section of the indivisible United States of America in rebellion.


 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 8044
tenngun
09-30-18 03:34 PM - Post#1704829    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

  • Colorado Clyde Said:
The people own....


The people of the South were not given the opportunity to decide if they wanted to secede.
as a result there were many anti-secessionists.

I'll call them hostages. Held hostage by those who already held people in chains.

Had everyone in the south been informed and afforded the chance to decide their fate, the war probably wouldn't have happened.




The people had voted for their state governments. All the states were organized in democratic principles. No,there was not universal manhood suffrage and no female adulthood suffrage. However the democratic principles were normal for all the states at that time.
We could make the same argument for the colonies in 1776, or Texas in 1836, and infact for France in1789,or all of Latin America, Cuba in 59(?), ect. A greater proportion of the population was represented in direct and indirect then in any other democratic society of its size in the world at the time.
And the war would have never happened if Lincoln had not called out state regiments to march on other states.

Edited by tenngun on 09-30-18 03:37 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Artificer 
Cannon
Posts: 7872
09-30-18 03:37 PM - Post#1704830    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

Never wrote or meant Lincoln did declare War and part of that was also for other reasons, one of the main ones was so the South could not be officially recognized internationally.

One thing I do give Lincoln credit for, even though his treacherous act started the War, was I do believe he would have kept the worst of the Reconstruction Era policies off the South, had he not been assassinated.

Gus

 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 8044
tenngun
09-30-18 03:39 PM - Post#1704831    

    In response to Artificer

Yup, the second worse thing that happened to the south was the assisanation of Lincoln.

 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 15524
Colorado Clyde
09-30-18 04:06 PM - Post#1704832    

    In response to tenngun

  • tenngun Said:



The people had voted for their state governments. .



But, No one had voted their representatives into office with the expressed desire of making war....Not the common people anyway.


 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 8044
tenngun
09-30-18 05:01 PM - Post#1704837    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

Nor did any one vote in the north to make war on the south, but in both cases people showed their support. Neither side had much of a recruiting problem at the onset of the war. The south hit close to the maximum force it could muster. Drafts were used on both sides but that was after the massive death tolls.
However there was also no election to withdraw from GB, nor was there a popular vote to enter First World War. Infact Wilson ran on “kept us out of War”. On dec 6th 1941 the majority of Americans wanted to stay out of the war, those people didn’t vote to go to war either...except in how fast the military filled up.
Wars that are not popular are reflected in empty recruiting center.... witness Vietnam, or “Hessions”.

 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 15524
Colorado Clyde
09-30-18 05:18 PM - Post#1704840    

    In response to tenngun

  • tenngun Said:
Nor did any one vote in the north to make war on the south,”.



That choice was negated because the Union was attacked by the Rebels. We had to defend the Union.....After all we were Americans....We could not let a bunch of rebels undo what our forefathers fought for and died for.... America could not fall back into a monarchy or something far more perverse.


 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 8044
tenngun
09-30-18 05:30 PM - Post#1704844    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

Lincoln forced the war. The south had no desire to invade the north or effect the north in any way. They only wanted to be left alone. The south represented zero threat to the north. The southern war cry at First Manasess ( Bull Run) was ‘Go Home!’ The south represented no more threat to the north then the colonies did to Britain.
The ‘bunch of rebels’ was a third of the population, who only wished self determination.

Edited by tenngun on 09-30-18 05:33 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 8044
tenngun
09-30-18 05:38 PM - Post#1704846    

    In response to tenngun

Do you ever get the feeling we should attack an easier problem to resolve like unified field theory or warp field development or harnessing dark energy?.... you know something easier

 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 8044
tenngun
09-30-18 05:41 PM - Post#1704848    

    In response to tenngun

Even the best load for a . 50 deer rifle

 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 15524
Colorado Clyde
09-30-18 05:47 PM - Post#1704849    

    In response to tenngun

  • tenngun Said:
Do you ever get the feeling we should attack an easier problem to resolve like unified field theory or warp field development or harnessing dark energy?.... you know something easier



Sure, I like the Alcubierre warp drive....and dark energy.


 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 8044
tenngun
09-30-18 06:04 PM - Post#1704855    

    In response to Colorado Clyde



 
Major Dorman 
32 Cal.
Posts: 46
09-30-18 07:07 PM - Post#1704857    

    In response to tenngun



 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 15524
Colorado Clyde
10-08-18 01:59 PM - Post#1706143    

    In response to Major Dorman

Here's something for everyone to enjoy...

https://youtu.be/ZmxfJqxwVIs


 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 8044
tenngun
10-08-18 04:16 PM - Post#1706156    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

Seen that before was very good. It is neat because books can only concentrate on one theater at a time. That same group of animators have done several wars.

 
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