Pedersoli Bess with wooden ramrod?

What is involved with converting a Pedersoli brown Bess to a wooden rammrod?
Just a pipe change? Will I need to drill out the stock behind/under the rear pipe?
Reasons I ask are I'd like the better historical accuracy for the F&I period, and the cleaner loading.
Thanks.

I don't have my Pedersoli Bess in front of me, but I think that it is going to be quite a job. I believe that those brass pipes are pinned so that they are part of what is holding the barrel to the wood. It may become what is nearly a rebuild of the musket, especially when considering the entry pipe at the bottom. Keep in mind that there were 1747 model "besses" with metal ramrods and even as early the late 1730s, some of the muskets were being shortened by taking a few inches off of the barrel. I can cite documentation for this, but not at the moment.

There is a reason the bess utilizes a metal ramming rod, military issued weapon.

Converting such a long piece to wood isn't the safest decision. The longer the wooden ramming rod the more run out, which equates to weak spots that will take the path of least resistance when and if it breaks.

Keep it the way it is for your safety and others around. I wouldn't ram a .75 caliber ball home with a wooden rod.

Hi,
You would have to replace all of the pipes, cut the ramrod groove to just under 7/16" diameter and the ramrod hole to 3/8" diameter. Many muskets issued to troops serving in F&I war had steel rammers although muskets with wooden rods were the most common during the early years of the war. In addition, the lock is roughly the same used on the pattern 1756, all of which had steel rammers. Any musket with a wooden ramrod would also have had a earlier banana-shaped lock. So you really are not gaining any HC by trying to use a wooden rammer.

dave

Dave, would such a ramming rod be of a larger diameter in the day due to the size of the ball?

Jason.45 said:

What is involved with converting a Pedersoli brown Bess to a wooden rammrod?
Just a pipe change? Will I need to drill out the stock behind/under the rear pipe?
Reasons I ask are I'd like the better historical accuracy for the F&I period, and the cleaner loading.
Thanks.

Click to expand...

Military weapons (many/most), of which the Bess is one, had metal rods. Therefore, there is no concern for historical accuracy...

Jason.45 said:

What is involved with converting a Pedersoli brown Bess to a wooden rammrod?
Just a pipe change? Will I need to drill out the stock behind/under the rear pipe?
Reasons I ask are I'd like the better historical accuracy for the F&I period, and the cleaner loading.
Thanks.

Click to expand...

To start off, the Pedersoli Bess is the short land pattern musket and it wasn't brought to the colonies until the AWI. Now, there are many reenactors who represent the Pedersoli musket in an F&I interpretation so your desire to defarb a Second Model is understandable.

Replace the ram rod thimbles with thimbles from a Long Land pattern musket sized for the wooden ram rod. The ram rod will be tapered until it flares out for the Long Land Pattern tip. Most likely you will have to enlarge the ramrod hole for the wooden rod although tapering will get you close to fitting the existing entry pipe. Since in reenacting, you fire blanks and strength in the ram rod is not necessarily the top priority. Use the steel rod when using the musket with ball.

Jason,

According to Dr. DeWitt Bailey, the pre-eminent scholar on the Brown Bess, no "King's Pattern Musket" or British Board of Ordnance (Government) issued Brown Bess with the flat bottomed P1755 lock (as is on your Pedersoli Bess) ever made it here in the Colonies during the FIW. SOME P1756 and P1760 Carbines with that flat bottom P1755 lock made it here, but those had smaller "Carbine size" Locks and .66 Caliber barrels, so that conversion would be out of the question.

THE most common Musket used here in the FIW was the P1742 Musket with the banana shaped lock that Dave Person mentioned and the wood ram rod. The standard barrel length was also 46" compared to the "Short Land Pattern Type" 42" barrel on the Pedersoli Bess.

Now some of the P1742 Muskets were shortened to 42" barrel lengths here during the war and bushings put in the larger diameter wood ram rod pipes to use a Steel Rammer as well as a retaining spring in the entry pipe. They also added either sheet metal brass nose bands to the stock near the muzzle and even some had cast brass nose caps fitted to them, as on the Pedersoli Bess. HOWEVER, the banana shaped locks on the P1742 rules that out as a conversion on your Pedersoli Bess.

Please understand that virtually every FIW reenactment group allows the Pedersoli Bess to be used for FIW reenacting, even though it is too late for the FIW War. This because for a very long time the Pedersoli and the Miroku Jap Bess (also a copy of the Short Land Pattern Musket) were the only readily available/affordable Muskets to do FIW period.

Now after possibly dashing your hopes, I do want to mention that British COMMERCIAL Muskets (Not Made to British Board of Ordnance/Government Patterns) WERE used here during the FIW with wood ram rods and the flat bottomed P1755 Lock (as on your Pedersoli Brown Bess). Barrels were also 42 inch length and they used cast brass nose caps as on your Pedersoli Bess.

One of these Commercial Muskets is on display at the Valley Forge Visitors' Center Museum and another is shown and the photo can be enlarged by clicking on it to see it better, in the following link. http://www.adirondackbasecamp.com/2013/04/rare-french-indian/

To change your Pedersoli Bess to this configuration, you would need to do the work and add the larger wood ram rod pipes that Dave Person mentioned above. Technically, you would also need to fill in the engraving on the lock plate and have just "Wilson" or another known Commercial Musket Maker's name engraved and also thin down the trigger guard a bit. However, that kind of lock plate engraving modification is usually beyond the abilities of most amateur hobbyists. So normally you would need to have it done for you by someone else.

Gus

As a "P.S." reply to my post above, here is an original example of the most commonly FIW issued P 1742 musket with the banana shaped lock we have mentioned and still in "as issued" condition.
https://www.collegehillarsenal.com/shop/product.php?productid=1360

Gus

enlarge the ramrod hole

Click to expand...

Not an easy job. I had to enlarge mine when I built my Navy Arms/Ped. kit just accept the steel ramrod. I did it by taking a length of steel rod and banging the 'h' out of the end turning it into a sorta rasp. Then with a hand held electric drill I enlarged the hole.

Hi Gus,
Good post. To follow up, on page 232 of Bailey's book "Small Arms of British Forces in America 1664-1815", is a table showing patterns of Brown Besses available to British troops in America. Included in the table are pattern 1742 muskets with steel rod conversions and pattern 1748 muskets, which included a cast nose cap and steel rod with pipes made for the metal rod. Both of those patterns were uncommon but did make it to America. On page 233, Bailey writes that the 44th and 48th regiments carried muskets with steel rammers during Braddock's 1755 campaign. However, the vast majority of troops had muskets with wooden rammers. The only musket issued that had a pattern 1755 flat bottomed lock, like the Pedersoli, was the pattern 1757 Marine musket with 42" barrel and wooden ramrod. I am sure they would be very rare.

dave

Dave,

Good follow up!

I think you have identified a mistake in Bailey's book in the table you mentioned showing the P 1748 Muskets as having been available in the colonies during the FIW. Perhaps available, but not documented as having come here.

All P 1748 muskets had been originally issued to British Regiments at home or on duty on the Continent. Bailey also mentions that any British Regiment that was already issued with "Steel Rammer Muskets" and were ordered to America: had those muskets taken away (for use by Regiments that would fight on the Continent) and issued Wood Rammer Muskets in their stead - on their way to the Colonies and often/usually done from the Irish Board of Ordnance.

So unless we could ever find documentation specifically mentioning the P 1748 muskets were used here during the FIW, it would seem all "Steel Rammer" muskets were P 1742 muskets and converted by the bushings in the larger pipes and the retaining spring in the entry pipe.

I was interested in that conversion for a while until...”¦...

It seems that conversion of the Wood Rammer Pipes with Bushings and the Retaining Spring for Steel Rammers - was a resounding FLOP, according to British Commanders here in the colonies as well as when used on the Continent. I am going to have to look this up, but I have seen documentation of that it in print in "A Soldier Like Way" or "Of Sorts for Provincials" or "The Brown Bess" by Stuart and Mowbray. Further, Cuthbertson also mentions the fact the retaining springs often/usually broke and the early Steel Rammers were not tempered correctly.

The British Board of Ordnance got the issues with the Steel Rammers corrected with the P 1756 Muskets, but again not issued here in the FIW.

Gus

Rifleman1776 said:

enlarge the ramrod hole

Click to expand...

Not an easy job. I had to enlarge mine when I built my Navy Arms/Ped. kit just accept the steel ramrod. I did it by taking a length of steel rod and banging the 'h' out of the end turning it into a sorta rasp. Then with a hand held electric drill I enlarged the hole.

Click to expand...

I really hope Dave Person see's this post to correct anything here I am mistaken about.

You are correct it would not be a really easy job to convert/open up the undersize "steel rammer size" hole in the stock larger for a wood ram rod. This because a drill bit is going to naturally want to follow the original hole inside the stock, as that is the path of least resistance.

I have to admit I have never attempted to do it, but it would seem to me the first thing one would do is get the ram rod channel in the fore end larger. Then turn the stock upside down and use maybe a bent handle rasp inside the hole in the stock at the entrance into the stock and at least a bit further back from that. The idea would be to make the center of the larger hole closer to the barrel than the bottom of the stock. Once that the hole was enlarged that way as far back as one could go, a longer drill bit would be carefully used to follow the path of that "newly opened up" entry hole area. The overall idea would be to keep the larger diameter hole from busting through the bottom of the stock.

I did not describe this well, but I hope others will understand what I am trying to describe.

Gus

Artificer said:

Rifleman1776 said:

enlarge the ramrod hole

Click to expand...

Not an easy job. I had to enlarge mine when I built my Navy Arms/Ped. kit just accept the steel ramrod. I did it by taking a length of steel rod and banging the 'h' out of the end turning it into a sorta rasp. Then with a hand held electric drill I enlarged the hole.

Click to expand...

I really hope Dave Person see's this post to correct anything here I am mistaken about.

You are correct it would not be a really easy job to convert/open up the undersize "steel rammer size" hole in the stock larger for a wood ram rod. This because a drill bit is going to naturally want to follow the original hole inside the stock, as that is the path of least resistance.

I have to admit I have never attempted to do it, but it would seem to me the first thing one would do is get the ram rod channel in the fore end larger. Then turn the stock upside down and use maybe a bent handle rasp inside the hole in the stock at the entrance into the stock and at least a bit further back from that. The idea would be to make the center of the larger hole closer to the barrel than the bottom of the stock. Once that the hole was enlarged that way as far back as one could go, a longer drill bit would be carefully used to follow the path of that "newly opened up" entry hole area. The overall idea would be to keep the larger diameter hole from busting through the bottom of the stock.

I did not describe this well, but I hope others will understand what I am trying to describe.

Gus

Click to expand...

Undoubtedly, there are probably better ways of doing that chore than my crude rotating rasp. I'm not a skilled builder. I found the drill would not go straight. (I had a long one made by welding a drill bit to a steel rod) The rasp concept struck me as a non-directional idea. FWIW, it worked. And was a cheap tool to make for a one time chore.

Hi Guys,
Given most Pedersoli stocks that I've encountered are pretty light weight walnut, enlargening the ramrod hole might be risky. Rather than break out on the bottom, I believe the hole would break into the barrel channel. Also, when re-drilling a ramrod hole, the tip of the drill tends to act as a wedge in the smaller hole until it actually cuts the wood away. That can put a lot of pressure on the stock, which is already weakened by the existing hole. I would actually do the job in one of two ways. I would enlargen the ramrod groove to fit the wooden rod, then plug the hole with a walnut dowel glued in place and drill a new hole from scratch. Alternatively, I would rout a slot down from the barrel channel, gouge or rout out the proper channel for the ramrod, and then glue a piece of walnut back in the barrel channel to cover it over. IMO, those are less risky than trying to drill or file out the existing hole.

dave

Hi Gus,
When I was building a colonial militia musket, I made one of those rear pipes with a spring riveted in place to put pressure on a smaller metal ramrod. I also made a bushing that was soldered into the forward pipe. It was awful. The rear spring was very weak and I could easily see how it would not last and unless you put bushings in all the pipes, the metal rod rattled annoyingly. I learned a good historical lesson from that bit of "experimental archaeology". I abandoned the idea and made pipes that fit the metal rammer.

dave

GREAT Idea on enlarging the hole in the stock! Thanks Dave.

Gus

I shot a Bess with a wood rammer for 20 years, broke the original but made a good split replacement

Artificer said:

You are correct it would not be a really easy job to convert/open up the undersize "steel rammer size" hole in the stock larger for a wood ram rod. This because a drill bit is going to naturally want to follow the original hole inside the stock, as that is the path of least resistance.

I have to admit I have never attempted to do it, but it would seem to me the first thing one would do is get the ram rod channel in the fore end larger. Then turn the stock upside down and use maybe a bent handle rasp inside the hole in the stock at the entrance into the stock and at least a bit further back from that. The idea would be to make the center of the larger hole closer to the barrel than the bottom of the stock. Once that the hole was enlarged that way as far back as one could go, a longer drill bit would be carefully used to follow the path of that "newly opened up" entry hole area. The overall idea would be to keep the larger diameter hole from busting through the bottom of the stock.

Click to expand...

I know that some folks have developed scrapers to correct mis-drilled ramrod holes. Chris Immel, aka Stophel, may know more about those; and I'm pretty positive that he made tapered reamer for ramrod holes. Both those ideas would be worth looking into, I'd think.

Thanks everyone for the info and discussion.

I apologise for not responding in a more timely manner, but life tends to get busy this time of year.

I realize that there is a lot more than just the rammer inacurate to the period, but the wood rammer seems to me to be the most visually obvious and while maybe not "easily" corrected, least difficult?

I'm not sure I'll actually go through with the project, as there are plenty on my short term radar and I hadn't considered the need to enlarge the channel off-center.

For what it's worth I'm not and don't expect to be with a regular/uniformed/established unit; I primarily shoot localish matches and so far have only been to a couple small, local rendezvous and Friendship (though I've yet to actually shoot there).

Also thanks for the info on the commercial muskets. :hatsoff: