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Unusual cylinder roll scene...

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A visitor turned up to our range on the guest day today with a contemporary Belgian copy of a Colt Navy .36cal revolver.

Apart from the broken parts that made it a definite non-shooter, it had the most unusual cylinder roll scene I've ever clapped my eyes on. Instead of the navy scene that gave it its name, this one had a railroad scene - a locomotive trundling across a wooden trestle, just as you would see on an old Western movie.

Anybody seen anything like this before?

Next time he turns up I'm going to ink-roll it, and send it to somebody here who can post it as an image to share with you.

tac
 
The only Colt roll stamp scene's I'm aware of are the ones of Captain Jack Hays and the Texas Rangers chasing off a bunch of Comanche Indians on the Walker and Dragoon, the Navy battle scene on the 1851's and some later belt pistols, the Stagecoach robbery scene on the 1848 and 1849 pocket pistols and the 1855 side hammer revolver.

There was also a "Battle of Bunker Hill" and a trophy lion scene used on the Patterson Carbine.

I'm not sure why the Belgian copy used a railroad scene on the cylinder but I suspect it might be due to a desire to identify the pistol with something that didn't exist to prevent unscrupulous people from trying to pawn it off as a real Colt revolver.

I know that when reproduction muzzleloaders and pistols first went on the market there was a real concern about counterfeits.

Reproductions with non-original sized bores, different rifling, different barrel lengths and other features were intentionally done to prevent it.

The gun is probably a Centennial (Centaures in Europe) and we have a resident expert on the guns made by them. Perhaps he'll show up and enlighten us?
 
Thanks, Zonie. A pal on another forum has just sent me some pics from a recent auction that seems, for the price reached, to have been in UK. The subject is a 'sheriff's model' and fetched £950.

If the one I handled today is a modern replication I'll be very surprised. The only makings on it a a very small 'COLTS PAT' at the left-hand front corner of the frame, about 1/16th high. I couldn't give it too much attention as I was RCOing a very busy guest day range, and as you know, you need eyes everywhere at times like that.

Rest assured that I'll post anything else I get to you as soon as I am able, but the owner lives a few hundred miles away from me, and like I said, he is an occasional guest with some very nice mid-19thC handguns which he has on his FAC for live-firing.

Best

tac
 
OK, here is the link - http://www.rustyoldarms.co.uk/recently-sold/obsolete_caliber_2653-2683

As you can see, it is a train going over a stylised bridge with a number of sailboats passing underneath.

The caption reads -

PLEASE CLICK IMAGE TO VIEW - A .35 SIX SHOT REVOLVER SIGNED COLT, MANUFACTURED IN BELGIUM ON LICENCE, CIRCA 1860-with octagonal 3 1/2in. barrel, the top-flat signed 'ADDRESS COL SAML COLT' prefixed and suffixed with cross-key designs, the left hand side of barrel with additional marking 'NEW-YORK US AMERICA' over further cross key devices and a central crown, maker's mark of 'F.B.' with crown, radiused muzzle, bead fore-sight, plain long cylinder with engraved scene of a steam locomotive crossing a bridge, large cross-key stamps to each nipple buttress and Liege proofs, open iron frame stamped 'COLT'S PATENT', plated grip-straps and trigger-guard, two-piece smooth walnut grips, the whole retaining a strong amount of original blued finish and colour-hardening, good action, nice and tight with strong springs and mirror bore with deep rifling and very clean chambers. In all appearing very little used. Seriam number 55530 sold sold sold

Please note that the 'crossed keys' and other marks are actually British proof marks from Birmingham Proof House between 1813 and 1904, and are NOT modern.

tac
 
Interesting. :)

Poking around on the web I found a site that said Colt patented his 1851 style revolver in Belgium Aug 21, 1849 and he needed to have some produced there within 2 years.
Before he had a company making them several other Belgian companies were copying them.

The guns he authorized had the Dragoon scene on their cylinders.

https://collections.museumvictoria.com.au/items/389226

I wonder if this railroad gun is one of the guns made by some unauthorized company?

As for the British proof marks, to me that just says at some time the gun was imported into GB and proofed to meet their requirements.
 
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Your last sentence sums it up, sometime in the latter part of the 19th C, though, as that style of complex crossed sceptres was much simplified after 1904.

Next time I see it, I'll pay more attention to it, but as I noted, I was engaged in a cat-herding competition, keeping a range full of club members and their guests safe. I exaggerate, of course, but you still need eyes everywhere.

tac

PS - barrel might just have been 5 inches - it was a handsome-looking piece and no mistake.
 
A gentlemand on canadiangunnutz.com has just advised me that it was a Model 1849 pocket pistol.

Please note that I never intimated that I was an expert on Colt's revolvers, and offered that I was a very busy fella at the time.

Apologies for any confunglement. :redface:

tac
 
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Just mentioning, that looks like a cable stayed suspension bridge on the cylinder from the link, not a wooden trestle bridge. Bridges like this were pretty rare in the 1800s, still rare today, and not many had the cables crossing in a mesh pattern the way they are shown on the engraving. My guess would be that it represents the Brooklyn Bridge, which was completed in 1883. There was an elevated railway which originally crossed it that was pulled by locomotives. Perhaps seeing the engraving of a locomotive would help in identifying it. The towers on the engraving don't look exactly like the towers on the BB, as they have three posts instead of four, but if you look at it from an angle, it can look like four posts, as in this early print:

Currier_and_Ives_Brooklyn_Bridge2.jpg


The Brooklyn Bridge would tie in with the New York address stamped on the gun. That would date the gun to after 1883, though. It is hard to find an earlier representation of a similar bridge, though, so the time frame would have to be close, even if it was meant to be a different bridge in the engraved scene.
 
Evidently my computer had not downloaded all the photos the first time I looked. There is a good photo of the engraved locomotive further down. It is way out of scale for the Brooklyn Bridge, but it is also way out of scale for the ships in the foreground. The locomotive itself does have a similarity to elevated train locomotives of the day:

nyelevated_shadbelly_c1877-7.2.13.jpg


It may well have been someone who was not a great engraver, told to do a picture of the BB with a train going across it, to sell to someone wanting to capitalize on the new bridge?
 
The one in the above post is .35 (.36) caliber, and pocket pistols were in .31...or so I read.

Additionally, the posted gun above has two-piece grips. This is confusing to a newbie like me. I thought they all had one-piece grips.
 
Remember that is it not a real Colt, but a close copy, like many of the Belgian copies were.

There will be many slight differences apart from the more obvious ones that you've correctly identified.

AFAIK, there never was ANY kind of .35cal handgun ever made, but remember that it is a British site, and they might just have measured something that was that size, maybe....who knows.

tac
 
Native Arizonan said:
Just mentioning, that looks like a cable stayed suspension bridge on the cylinder from the link, not a wooden trestle bridge.

I totally agree, but remember that it was waved under my nose for about five seconds before it went into his shooting bag. You're lucky I identified it as a revolver, let alone some kind of Colt-ish thing.

tac
 
these are Schnorrenberg Colt copies, manufactured after 1880, without license
they are generally knonw as "Brooklyn Bridge Colts"
https://ostrich-san.livejournal.com/11376814.html

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20s/a%20schnorrenberg%20gb.htm
https://www.hermann-historica.de/e...=67&Accid=1469&Atype=0&Lstatus=0&currentpos=1
https://www.hermann-historica.de/e...=67&Accid=1469&Atype=0&Lstatus=0&currentpos=2
http://decimal1.blogspot.com/2017/02/1851-colt-navy-brevetes-term-brevete.html

hope this help
shunka
 
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shunka said:
these are Schnorrenberg Colt copies, manufactured after 1880, without license
they are generally knonw as "Brooklyn Bridge Colts"
https://ostrich-san.livejournal.com/11376814.html

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20s/a%20schnorrenberg%20gb.htm
https://www.hermann-historica.de/e...=67&Accid=1469&Atype=0&Lstatus=0&currentpos=1
https://www.hermann-historica.de/e...=67&Accid=1469&Atype=0&Lstatus=0&currentpos=2
http://decimal1.blogspot.com/2017/02/1851-colt-navy-brevetes-term-brevete.html

hope this help
shunka

Many thanks indeed, Sir. If I may, I'll repost your information.

tac
 
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Be my guest :) I just find the info and pass it along.

The "Brevet Colts" , licensed or unlicensed, is another facet of the rabid colt collector world, and another rabbit hole to fall down lol.

yhs
shunka
 
dang it that wassupposed to be
" brevit colts (licensed ) and unlicensed copies "
 
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