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Login Name Post: .58 Cal Loads for Buffalo        (Topic#308017)
BrownBear 
Cannon
Posts: 14383
BrownBear
08-19-18 11:00 PM - Post#1698689    

    In response to mahkagari

  • mahkagari Said:
...my shoulder is killing me.



Easy to understand if you're shooting from a bench and nestling the butt into the same spot you do with a modern rifle. Hooked butts are intended to go out on your arm a little and OUTSIDE the shoulder joint. Feels kinda weird at first, but it sure takes the bite out.
"Lay in the weeds and wait, and when you get your chance to say something, say something good."
Merle Haggard


 
mahkagari 
40 Cal.
Posts: 161
08-20-18 07:39 AM - Post#1698711    

    In response to BrownBear

  • BrownBear Said:
  • mahkagari Said:
...my shoulder is killing me.



Easy to understand if you're shooting from a bench and nestling the butt into the same spot you do with a modern rifle. Hooked butts are intended to go out on your arm a little and OUTSIDE the shoulder joint. Feels kinda weird at first, but it sure takes the bite out.



I'll give it a try.


 
Fyrstyk 
40 Cal.
Posts: 354
Fyrstyk
08-20-18 07:40 AM - Post#1698712    

    In response to mahkagari

When I shoot my .58;s from the bench with hunting loads, I use a sissy pad on my shoulder/upper arm. Once I get my load tuned in, I practice my off hand shooting. I don't seem to notice the recoil as much when shooting off hand, and never notice it when I am shooting at game.

 
BrownBear 
Cannon
Posts: 14383
BrownBear
08-20-18 11:58 AM - Post#1698771    

    In response to Fyrstyk

When shooting big modern "African" boomers I use a standing benchrest so my whole body can rock and roll with the recoil. If not available and I have to sit, I raise the rifle rest so high on the bench that I sit fully upright to shoot. Much the same effect as your upper body can rock back to absorb recoil. Except a really big boomer can rock you so far you'll roll back off the seat if you don't watch out.

However you do it with boomers, if your body can rock back the recoil is fine. Biggest mistake I see guys making at the bench is having their rifle down low and leaning into them like so many modern shooters with pipsqueek guns. Though I don't count a 58 as a boomer, the upright or standing rests can sure stretch a day.
"Lay in the weeds and wait, and when you get your chance to say something, say something good."
Merle Haggard


 
nhmoose 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2245
nhmoose
08-20-18 05:01 PM - Post#1698859    

    In response to mahkagari

For your shoulder get a Past recoil shield you wear. We call it a chicken pad but it gets rid of the hurt and more important the beginning of a flinch!!!

 
mahkagari 
40 Cal.
Posts: 161
08-20-18 08:17 PM - Post#1698912    

    In response to nhmoose

  • nhmoose Said:
For your shoulder get a Past recoil shield you wear. We call it a chicken pad but it gets rid of the hurt and more important the beginning of a flinch!!!



Got one of those before I finished the build!

 
Irish lad 
36 Cal.
Posts: 52
Irish lad
08-22-18 06:05 PM - Post#1699258    

    In response to mahkagari

I load 110 grains of Swiss 1.5 in my custom .58 Hawken with a .570 ball, .0020 patch and a felt wad over the powder.
The barrel is a 36” Green Mountain 1 in 70 twist.
The gun is zeroed 1” high at 75 yards and with my eyes I would not shoot past 125.
Best of luck with the buff.
Irish

 
mahkagari 
40 Cal.
Posts: 161
09-20-18 05:21 PM - Post#1703453    

    In response to Irish lad

Update:

Working with 100gr of FFG Pyrodex with .018" lubed patch on a .570 RB. Got down from >12" groups at 50yds to <10" at 75. Getting used to the rifle's feel and sight picture.

Shooting standing off sticks, the rifle found that spot between by bicep and deltoid people referred to.

The barrel seems to foul pretty quickly. After 10 or so shots, it starts getting hard to push the bullet through the front third.

I want to be able to consistently hit the 8" gong at 75 yards off sticks to feel confident in a quick kill. Right now, I know I'll hit the boiler room, but I'd really like to feel good about a heart shot. Got just under 3 weeks.


Edited by mahkagari on 09-20-18 05:21 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
azmntman 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5810
azmntman
09-20-18 05:28 PM - Post#1703454    

    In response to mahkagari

Have you tried different conicals? I know my pop was shooting Great Plains by Hornady in his Invest Arms Hawkenish rifle and when he shot at the "test" range before the hunt he hit bull at 100yds off hand .

I have cow hunt in a week, my .58 is hitting 3-4" groups at 100 with PRB. 80 gr Blk MZ and oiled patch (sorry Dutch no time to accuraize this one yet).



 
mahkagari 
40 Cal.
Posts: 161
09-20-18 06:01 PM - Post#1703464    

    In response to azmntman

  • azmntman Said:
Have you tried different conicals?



Conicals are just too pricey and don't have time to work up the load. It's on the "list".

  • Quote:
I have cow hunt in a week, my .58 is hitting 3-4" groups at 100 with PRB.



Buff cow? Good luck!


 
Zonie 
Moderator
Posts: 26759
Zonie
09-20-18 06:39 PM - Post#1703475    

    In response to mahkagari

Don't be afraid to try powder loads smaller than the 100 grains your using.

These big patched roundballs kill from mass trauma as much or more than they do with velocity.
Remember, that .570 ball is larger than many modern bullets expand to and your .570 ball will expand even more when it hits the game animal.

Sometimes, less is more and using less powder can greatly improve accuracy.

Give a 80 grain powder load a try and see what happens.

Also, don't forget to check the condition of your fired patches. If they are ripped or badly burned where the ball tried to meet the barrel you will never get good accuracy.

All that said, I don't think I would hunt with a gun that couldn't shoot a 6 inch diameter group or smaller at 75 yards.

Remenber, accuracy is the name of the game when it comes to muzzleloaders and hunting.

Oh. Use a damp (not wet) patch on your cleaning jag to wipe the fouling out of the bore. Do this at least every 3rd shot. Many target shooters will say do it after each shot.

When you do this wiping, run the damp patch down the bore in one smooth, moderately slow stroke.
Let it rest at the breech for a few seconds and then slowly pull it back out of the barrel.
Do NOT pump the rod and jag up and down. That is a first class way to knock the fouling down into the breech where it will cause ignition problems.

Have fun.
Just Jim...



 
azmntman 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5810
azmntman
09-20-18 09:16 PM - Post#1703500    

    In response to Zonie

Geez I didnt see you are using PRB

I agree with Zonie, start at 70 and up 5 at a time. 80 is the most accurate for my rifle. And no, I'm after cow elk not buffalo. Now that I'm older I have way enough points to draw a buffalo tag but now that I'm older I have no cash for the tag $1,100.00 in AZ for a bull and I MUST shoot a bull.

Dad used a conical for his buff but I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a PRB under 75 yds. They smack stuff HARD and once ya get through the hide a buff is JUST LIKE AN ELK. 80 gr PRB has always passed through elk for me, even with a shoulder hit.

 
mahkagari 
40 Cal.
Posts: 161
09-20-18 09:55 PM - Post#1703512    

    In response to Zonie

  • Zonie Said:
Don't be afraid to try powder loads smaller than the 100 grains your using.



Yeah, once I can differentiate what is me vs. the gun, I'll experiment with that factor.

  • Quote:
All that said, I don't think I would hunt with a gun that couldn't shoot a 6 inch diameter group or smaller at 75 yards.



I'm sure the GUN can. What can be said about the operator is TBD.

  • Quote:
Also, don't forget to check the condition of your fired patches. If they are ripped or badly burned where the ball tried to meet the barrel you will never get good accuracy.



What would I correct there? Lately, all I have been seeing is smoldering remnants of patches.


Edited by mahkagari on 09-20-18 10:00 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
BrownBear 
Cannon
Posts: 14383
BrownBear
09-21-18 12:17 AM - Post#1703534    

    In response to mahkagari

  • mahkagari Said:
...all I have been seeing is smoldering remnants of patches.




That may be the source of your accuracy issues. I'd experiment with a different lube, and likely a thicker patch. They should be more or less intact.
"Lay in the weeds and wait, and when you get your chance to say something, say something good."
Merle Haggard


 
excess650 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1102
excess650
09-21-18 06:29 AM - Post#1703546    

    In response to mahkagari

  • mahkagari Said:

What would I correct there? Lately, all I have been seeing is smoldering remnants of patches.




My patches, regardless of caliber (.45, .50, .58, .62) are intact enough to be loaded and shot again.

Last fall I was watching a friend shoot his .54 or .58 and it seemed to be all over the paper at 50 yards. I SAW him flinching, so suggested that maybe I should take a couple of shots. I was closer, but not what I would call a group. When the firing line was clear, I found patches and they were blown.

Since it seemed snug enough for a hunting load, I loaded one of his lubed patches (mink oil)into the bore, and then followed it up with a PRB. The blown patch problem went away, the gun/load grouped, and it remained field loadable with the under barrel rod.

I've since shot my .45 with what I regard as way too loose. I had forgotten my range rod, so was dealing with a limp delrin rod normally used only for cleaning my 42" barreled .50. I decided to try one of my flannel cleaning patches. They are decidedly soft/loose compared to pillow ticking or duck cloth. Regardless, I lubed with mink oil and cut at the muzzle after thumbing the ball/patch into the bore. I had already put bits and pieces of lubed pillow ticking in the bore, and then proceeded to shoot. It shot a couple of inches low, and didn't group as well compared to my normal, tight (requires short starter) ball/patch, but would have been fine for a follow up at 50 yards or less. The recovered flannel patches were frayed, rifling clearly visible, but not cut/burned/blown.


 
NWTF Longhunter 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1298
NWTF Longhunter
09-21-18 06:31 AM - Post#1703548    

    In response to mahkagari

This .62 smoothbore loaded with 80gr's 2ff behind a 595 prb went completely through this buff from 70yd's




 
Zonie 
Moderator
Posts: 26759
Zonie
09-21-18 05:51 PM - Post#1703633    

    In response to mahkagari

  • mahkagari Said:


  • Quote:
Also, don't forget to check the condition of your fired patches. If they are ripped or badly burned where the ball tried to meet the barrel you will never get good accuracy.



What would I correct there? Lately, all I have been seeing is smoldering remnants of patches.




IMO, that is 90% of the reason your getting poor groups.

Burned, torn or ripped patches will never allow the rifle to shoot accuretly.

You didn't say what kind of patches you are using except to say your gun likes .015 thick patches better than it does .010 or .020 thick patches.

Are the patches you are using "pre-lubricated"?
I've seen cases where the pre-lubricated patches cloth fibers have broken down and blown apart when they were shot. The break down of the cloth was due to their age.

I'm assuming your patches were store bought? If so and if they were not the pre-lubricated kind, the amount of lube your using might be the problem.

I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me but I think the patch should be lubed on both sides with enough lube to dampen the fibers all the way thru.
While the light powder loads used for target shooting can stand light lubrication the heavy powder charges often used for hunting can do a good job of vaporizing lightly lubed patches.

If adding some extra lube doesn't keep the patch from burning, try going back to the thicker .020 patch.
Yes, the .020 thick patch is harder to load but if using them with enough lube stops them from burning they should improve your group size.

Loading a lubed patch on top of the powder charge before loading the patched ball, like excess650 mentioned can also protect the balls patch from burning.
Because it is between the powder charge and the patched ball, it serves as a firewall against the flame. It also gets blown into the area just behind the place where the balls patch meets the bore. This will add extra sealing to that critical area, preventing the hot gasses from blowing past and burning thru the balls patch.


If you have a cloth store or a Walmart that sells cloth, you might look for some "pillow ticking" to use for your patches.

It is usually about .016-.020 thick, blue/white or red/white striped, made from 100% cotton and one yard worth of it will provide you with well over 500 patches.
They can be cut into squares and they will work just as well as the round patches most people think of. For your .58, they should be cut into 1 1/2" squares (or circles if you want).

Until you get this patch problem solved, you won't be able to get the gun to shoot up to its potential.
Because of this, get a spotter to help you if you can. His/her job will be to keep track of where the patches land so after shooting a few times, you will be able to find them.

It might sound odd, but this patch burning issue is so important, if you can't find a helper, it will be worth your time and money for YOU to watch for the flight of the shot patch rather than concentrating on aiming the gun.
Yes, aim it so the shot hits the berm but watch for the flying patch. It will usually go about 6-12 yards downrange.

The shot patches can have the center area burned and the outer threads will be torn and tattered from the wind blast but the area where the ball meets the bore should be unburned and show no signs of being cut or torn.

Once you get the patches to look like that, then you can get back to testing various powder charges and reducing the size of your groups.
Just Jim...



Edited by Zonie on 09-21-18 06:01 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
BrownBear 
Cannon
Posts: 14383
BrownBear
09-21-18 06:50 PM - Post#1703639    

    In response to Zonie

  • Zonie Said:

The shot patches can have the center area burned and the outer threads will be torn and tattered from the wind blast but the area where the ball meets the bore should be unburned and show no signs of being cut or torn.

Once you get the patches to look like that, then you can get back to testing various powder charges and reducing the size of your groups.



Yup. I checked my photo files, and sure enough I have some patches recovered during one of my lube trials. Purty!


"Lay in the weeds and wait, and when you get your chance to say something, say something good."
Merle Haggard


 
mahkagari 
40 Cal.
Posts: 161
09-22-18 04:36 PM - Post#1703749    

    In response to Zonie

  • Zonie Said:

Burned, torn or ripped patches will never allow the rifle to shoot accuretly.

You didn't say what kind of patches you are using except to say your gun likes .015 thick patches better than it does .010 or .020 thick patches.

Are the patches you are using "pre-lubricated"?



Using .018" Eastern Maine Shooting Supply pillow ticking pre-lubed.

  • Quote:
If adding some extra lube doesn't keep the patch from burning, try going back to the thicker .020 patch.
Yes, the .020 thick patch is harder to load but if using them with enough lube stops them from burning they should improve your group size.



Yeah, .020 won't even start. 'Bout broke my wrist trying. Glad I found the .018".

  • Quote:
Loading a lubed patch on top of the powder charge before loading the patched ball, like excess650 mentioned can also protect the balls patch from burning.



I'll give that a try. Do I just take a patch, wad it up and push it down with the ramrod before the bullet? Do I need to seat it well before pushing the bullet down? Asking in particular for follow-up shots with a pissed off bull.

  • Quote:
They can be cut into squares and they will work just as well as the round patches most people think of. For your .58, they should be cut into 1 1/2" squares (or circles if you want).



Ya know, I swear I see denim patches all over the range. Anyone know their thickness? I like denim for cleaning.

  • Quote:
Because of this, get a spotter to help you if you can. His/her job will be to keep track of where the patches land so after shooting a few times, you will be able to find them.



Yeah, I oughta take a rake with me and clear the space first. 10 yards from the firing line looks like the aftermath of a ticker tape parade.


In other update, managed to get under 6" today off of sticks. I'd love to say under 3" with a couple of flyaways, but that's not accurate. Did get a nice 3" group, though it is 4" high and to the right. I'm sure that's about me getting used to the sights. It's much better than the 18" right I was getting a week or two ago. Funny that it seemed like I was grouping better off of sticks than the benchrest.

And I've got a nice bruise forming on my arm from the offhand settle spot.

Edited by mahkagari on 09-22-18 04:38 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
BrownBear 
Cannon
Posts: 14383
BrownBear
09-23-18 08:19 AM - Post#1703801    

    In response to mahkagari

  • mahkagari Said:
...pre-lubed....



For me, that right there is the magic word. I've never had any brand hold together. Dunno if they get old on the shelf or what. But the moment I went to lubing my own, patches quit shredding and accuracy improved. A bunch.
"Lay in the weeds and wait, and when you get your chance to say something, say something good."
Merle Haggard


 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 14832
Rifleman1776
09-23-18 11:21 AM - Post#1703833    

    In response to mahkagari

  • Quote:
I see denim patches all over the range. Anyone know their thickness? I like denim for cleaning.



I don't recall the thickness of (most) denim. But, it is thicker than (most) ticking. I'm guessing it will be in the .018" to .020" range. Of course, each rifle has individual tastes but, usually, regular mattress ticking will be good. I have a lot of denim in hand from my days of being an obsessed 'X' hunter. I used a .457" ball with denim in a Douglas barrel. Required a lot of mallett work to seat the ball. As for using denim for cleaning, I believe that is a waste. Less expensive baby blanket cotton flannel is my choice. Cut-off ends or on sale colors can be very inexpensive. Ignore the looks the ladies will give you when shopping for this stuff.

 
BrownBear 
Cannon
Posts: 14383
BrownBear
09-23-18 12:17 PM - Post#1703838    

    In response to Rifleman1776

  • Rifleman1776 Said:
Less expensive baby blanket cotton flannel is my choice. Cut-off ends or on sale colors can be very inexpensive. Ignore the looks the ladies will give you when shopping for this stuff.



And ignore the noises you hear on the range. I pull out my cleaning patches with their cute little penguins and reindeer, and you should here the choking and snorting up and down the line.
"Lay in the weeds and wait, and when you get your chance to say something, say something good."
Merle Haggard


 
mahkagari 
40 Cal.
Posts: 161
09-23-18 12:19 PM - Post#1703839    

    In response to Rifleman1776

  • Rifleman1776 Said:
As for using denim for cleaning, I believe that is a waste. Less expensive baby blanket cotton flannel is my choice.



Kids are well past cotton baby blankets, but we all go through plenty of jeans.

Was kind of all over this morning, but grouping is still getting down. Could not handle that 13lber for **** shooting prone. Was able to break out the Crony and got 1591 fps.


 
Idaho PRB 
45 Cal.
Posts: 765
09-27-18 05:52 PM - Post#1704380    

    In response to Fyrstyk

I have a PAST recoil shield I use when bench testing. The .58 can be brutal after a while. Makes a huge difference.
PAST at Midway

 
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