Muzzleloading Forum .....


Contact - Can't Login?
Login Name Post: Accepted musket for F&I French Military        (Topic#307814)
40calflinter 
36 Cal.
Posts: 57
40calflinter
07-09-18 08:22 PM - Post#1693129    


The Brown Bess is an acceptable musket for use for British Military for F&I re-enactment. What musket is acceptable for the French Military?

 
Black Hand 
Cannon
Posts: 7601
Black Hand
07-09-18 08:36 PM - Post#1693132    

    In response to 40calflinter

A Charleville might do the job. http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket14.htm

 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 7890
tenngun
07-09-18 10:30 PM - Post#1693139    

    In response to Black Hand

When I hit your link the 1766 came up, I don’t know why, the web page under products- French muskets offers the 1728 with the calf’s foot butt and the 1717 single band musket.

 
Artificer 
Cannon
Posts: 7681
07-10-18 01:13 AM - Post#1693151    

    In response to 40calflinter

Technically speaking, the most modern/up to date French muskets that may/could have been found in Canada during the FIW were the M1728 Muskets as modified in 1741 to add a steel rammer or just possibly as further modified in 1746 by eliminating the Pan Bridle - though the latter is not nearly as likely.

In the War of the Austrian Succession/King George's War, British American forces captured the French Fortress Louisboug in 1745. That Fort was at least "a" if not "the" main French Military Arms storage point in 1745. British American forces emptied out all French Small Arms at that time.

The War of Austrian Succession concluded with the Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle in 1748. Fortress Loiusbourg was given back to France in that treaty and they restocked it with French Arms in the late 1740's to early 1750's. When British and British American forces recaptured Fortress Louisbourg in 1758, there were about 15,000 French Arms captured then. After that France did not significantly further supply their troops in Canada with more Arms. Most of the fighting in North America ended in 1760, so the French Models M1763's and M1766's never made it to North America during the FIW.

Having noted the above information, most FIW reenactments allow the use of reproduction Navy Arms, Miroku and Pedersoli M1763/1766 Muskets because for many years, those were the earliest reproduction Muskets available in quantity. More recent India made Muskets of the proper Models are allowed as well.

To give you a better idea of what the French Model Muskets mentioned above looked like, here is a link you may enjoy.
http://jaegerkorps.org/NRA/The%20Revolutionary%20Charleville...

Gus

 
Loyalist Dave 
Cannon
Posts: 6846
Loyalist Dave
07-10-18 06:46 AM - Post#1693167    

    In response to 40calflinter

  • Quote:
What musket is acceptable for the French Military?



Musket
to the 18th century military reenactor means a smoothbore that accepts a bayonet..., and Gus was correct, the 1728 French musket, or the 1717 musket, and one might find some 1695 Tulle, Marine muskets. However, for French militia, perhaps an early Fusil de Chasse?

LD

 
Spence10 
Cannon
Posts: 6972
07-10-18 09:04 AM - Post#1693177    

    In response to Loyalist Dave

This is probably of no use to anyone, but what the heck?

On another forum many years ago I corresponded extensively with a man from French Quebec who's chief interest in early history was French arms. He collected, restored, studied and fired them with a consuming passion. I'm not qualified to judge, but he seemed quite expert on the subject. He posted this summary of the changes in French muskets over the years, which might be useful to someone.

  • Quote:
Evolution of the French military flintlocks

1717

1717 is the first year of strict regulation and standardization of the muskets to be used for service. The 1717 lock is a direct offspring of the commonly encountered late 1600's locks with it's flat lockplate and diamond-shaped iron flashpan but with a few major modification: The Gooseneck cock takes a flat outer profile as opposed to the rounded profile commonly encountered in civilian production, and for the first time, a tumbler bridle is added. The battery spring also received a bridle.

1728

The usefulness of the battery bridle being rather doubtful, it
was suppressed and replaced by a flashpan bridle that reinforced the rigidity of assembly.

1746

In order to cut down on cost, the flashpan bridle is suppressed. It was permanently re-introduced in 1754.

1763

This year marked the introduction of a feature that was
permanently retained until the disappearance of the flintlock from service: A lower cock jaw reinforcing bridge called "espalet" in French. This feature drastically reduced the risks of cock neck breakage. Another useful feature was the addition of a hole through the upper cock jaw screw, in addition to the traditional slot, allowing the use of any rod or nail for tightening in the absence of a screwdriver. This feature was also permanently retained.

1770

In order to reduce sharp edges that wore off clothing and to make manufacture easier, all sharp edges were rounded off: The cock takes a rounded profile, and so does the flashpan and the rear end of the lockplate.

1774

The battery's foot curvature gets suppressed in order to reduce the costs. This feature was permanently retained.

1777

First attempt to obtain part interchangeability. The flashguard of the flashpan is suporessed, the pan is tiltted forward to facilitate priming on three rows and in order to reduce corrosion problems, the flashpan is made out of brass. That last feature was permanently retained. An other neat feature was the introduction of a back-curvature in the upper part of the battery's face, called "retroussis de batterie" that allowed a better attack of a worn out flint as well as clearing off the cock's top jaw / top jaw screw when the flint was excessively short.

1777/An IX

The "retroussis de batterie" is suppressed for ease of production/costs reasons.

1816

The geometry of the battery resulting from the angled flashpan proved to mess-up the dynamics of the lock by reducing the leverage with respect to the battery's axis, leading to rapid flint wear and high sensitivity to the flint adjustment. The 1816 lock therefore went back to the classical horizontal flashpan with a flashguard but retained the brass construction. In order to improve ignition speed,
the flashpan was lowered so that the center of the flashhole came flush with the battery table, and the table had a cut milled in it to clear the flashhole.

1822

The last French service flintlock. It basically takes the 1816
disposition but deepened the flashpan and adjusted it's upper surface to cover the flashhole to avoid shooting a jet of hot gasses directly on the RHS guy. The battery table retained it's milled groove but a small, barely discernible "retroussis" was added. As production proceeded, steel parts were first introduced: tumbler bridle, sear, tumbler and eventually the screws. The 1822 lock was eventually modified to percussion from 1841 onwards, but that's an
other story...

...And here it is:

The first tinkering with the percussion lock took place in the late 1820's Very quickly the back action lock was favored over the classical design and neglecting the Poncharra locks that were introduced on the Fusil de Rempart Mle 1831, on the Pistolet d'officier Mle 1831 and on the Carabine Mle 1837, the first percussion musket lock was introduced in 1840.

1840

This back action lock was the first put in service for the short-lived Mle 1840 musket. It featured a single spring that acted as a main spring via a link held in a claw on it's upper branch and as a sear spring by it's lower branch. Due to the absence of any lockplate forward of the cock, the only device that would stop it's forward motion, besides the nipple, was the bridle screws. In 1843, the spring claw diminished slightly in size to ease reassembly. The hammer's head was quite crooked to the left to strike the nipple that was installed on the top right part of the barrel as to provide a straight ignition path to the main charge. The hammer axis is made hexagonal instead of square.

1847

In order to reinforce it's robustness, the two bridle screws
were moved further apart, for a better repartition of the impact shall the lock be accidentally "fired" disassembled from the musket.

1853

Same internals, the hammer head's is simply twisted back a little more to the right due to the fact that the nipple has been moved slightly to the right, at the expense of a somewhat angled channel, in order to clear the visual path on the center of the barrel if a ladder sight was to be added. Locks for the 1857 rifle are absolutely identical but are written Mle 1857 on the internal face of the lockplate.

General comment: The hammers are quite heavy, which is not the best solution for a fast lock time, but this drawback is partially compensated by a really, and I mean REALLY powerful mainspring. The nipples has to be tempered real hard not to get too badly battered, and the caps get cut through upon firing. Ignition is absolutely flawless due to straight, or virtually straight ignition path.

Some of the 1816 and virtually all of the 1822 muskets were converted to percussion by removing all the flashpan/battery related stuff, plugging the flashpan cut with a piece of steel, riveting shut all the useless crew holes and replacing the cock with a hammer, similar to those used on the 1840 locks but with a square hole.
Jan HAMIER


Spence

 
Artificer 
Cannon
Posts: 7681
07-10-18 11:08 AM - Post#1693202    

    In response to Spence10

Spence,

FWIW, I enjoyed reading the information because of the different terminology used and for some technical points mentioned. Thank you.

  • Spence10 Said:

1763

Another useful feature was the addition of a hole through the upper cock jaw screw, in addition to the traditional slot, allowing the use of any rod or nail for tightening in the absence of a screwdriver. This feature was also permanently retained.



The original British Muskets copied this feature in the P1777 Muskets onward.

This feature is also commonly found on Pedersoli and Miroku reproduction Short Land Pattern Bess Muskets, though it really is too early for that model.

Gus

 
Spence10 
Cannon
Posts: 6972
07-10-18 12:45 PM - Post#1693219    

    In response to Artificer

  • Artificer Said:
FWIW, I enjoyed reading the information because of the different terminology used...


Terminology? You like terminology? Boy, do I have a gift for you. Or your files.

  • Quote:
French-English glossary of Flintlock Firearm Parts

ame..................bore
amorce...............priming
anneau du chien......space beneath under jaw of cock
coeur du chien....... " " "
arbre de noix........that part of the tumbler going through the lock plate

axe du noix..........that part of the tumbler going through the lock plate

assiette.............that part of the frizzen which covers the pan
assise............... " " " " " " " "
entablement.......... " " " " " " " "
table................ " " " " " " " "
baguette.............ramrod
bassinet.............pan
battant..............sling swivel
batterie.............frizzen
bayonette............bayonet
bouche...............muzzle
bouterolle..........thickened portion of the upper edge of the lock plate in the rear of the pan into which the rear lockscrew engages.

bride...............bridle
busc................comb of the butt
canal...............the recess in the wood for barrel or ramrod
canon...............barrel
capucine............rear band without swivel. If a swivel is present, it becomes a "grenadiere-capucine"
carabine............rifle
carre' du chien.....the square hole in the cock to receive the tumbler

chenapan............snaphance
chien...............cock, in modern phrase, hammer
clou................nail
contre-platine......side plate
esse...........…….... " "
porte-vis....…....... " "
corps de platine....lock plate
coude...............elbow (of a bayonet)
coude du chien.....
espalet du chien/Epaulement du chien ….
support du chien...
The ledge on the left side of the cock which when the cock is down bears upon the lock plate (all three terms mean the same)

courroie............sling (strap) Bretelle is more frequently used.
crans du noix.......half and full cock bents
crochets du noix....half and full cock bents
crete du chien......upper part back of the jaws of the cock
crochet de ceinture...belt hook
crosse..............butt, stock
cuivre..............copper: sometimes bronze or brass
culasse.................breech plug.
debander................to uncock.
detente.................trigger
dos du chien............back part of the lock
douille.................socket (Also brass for ctg and tube into which a shaft or rod is inserted.)

embase..................normally something, mounted on something else, onto which you mount another thing: Embase de guidon = front sight base.

embouchoir..............muzzle band
encastrement............a recess into which something fits snugly e.g. Encastrement de platine = lock inletting.

face de batterie........the upright part of the frizzen. More precisely, the part of the upright part that gets scraped by the flint.

fendue..................slotted
fusil...................musket or gun
fut.....................fore end; fore stock
gachette................sear
goupille................locking pin, like for a grenade, or to mount a barrel. Shape is irrelevant.

grand ressort...........main spring
grenadiere..............middle band,as long as it has a swivel
griffe du noix..........tumbler hook
guidon..................sight (front)
laiton..................brass
lame....................blade (of a bayonet)
lumiere.................touch-hole
machoires du chien......jaws of the cock
monture.................the manner of setting the metal parts in the wood
mousqueton........musketoon, generally carbine (smoothbore) Short weapon. Name comes from the mousqueton, which is the snap hook that allows the weapon to be carried hanging from the horseman's bel via the ring on the tringle.

noix....................tumbler
pied de batterie........that part of the frizzen that is pressed against the spring when the frizzen is closed.

pierre..................or "silex" = flint.
pivot................…….small cylindrical stud
pivot du noix...........the pivot on the tumbler entering the bridal
pivot de platine........that thickened portion of the upper edge of the lock plate in front of the pan

plaque de couche........butt plate
platine.................lock
poignee.................grip, neck, wrist: part between rear of lock and front of butt
pontet..................trigger guard
queue...................tang
queue de culasse......tang or tail extending back from breech
rampart de la batterie....part that is treaded for the frizzen screw and that rests against the right barrel flat, forward of the flash hole.

ressort.................spring
ressort de batterie.....frizzen spring
ressort de gachette.....sear spring
ressort de garniture....band spring
rive'...................riveted
sousgarde...............trigger-plate and its front and rear extensions when the guard is separate.

taraude'................threaded, speaking of a screw hole, the screw is filete'

tenon...................stud, lug
tete de clou............nail head
tire-bourre.............wormer
tonnerre................breech.
tourne-vis..............combination tool for screws and jaw screw; screwdriver, turn-screw



tringle......on a carbine, the rod upon which the swivel ring travels
trousse.....the tail piece of the frizzen which by contact with the spring prevents it from going too far forward, also called talon de batterie

vis......................screw
vis du chien............jaw screw of the cock
vis grande..............side-pin, or screw securing the lock, usually called vis de platine.

vis du carre, or vis du chien or clou du chien........screw which holds the cock to the tumbler


Spence

 
Elnathan 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1262
07-10-18 05:34 PM - Post#1693237    

    In response to Spence10

Interesting. I notice that they have a number of specialized terms for parts that have no specific name in English.




One French firelock that never seems to get any love is the fusil ordinaire and the fusil grenadiere, I think they were the mainstay of the French Marines (New France was the responsibility of the Navy, not the Army, so the only professional troops in New France prior to the F&I War were marines, I believe). Not sure how many were ever issued, but they were around.

 
Artificer 
Cannon
Posts: 7681
07-10-18 05:41 PM - Post#1693238    

    In response to Elnathan

  • Elnathan Said:
Interesting. I notice that they have a number of specialized terms for parts that have no specific name in English.




Exactly what I was thinking. Very interesting indeed!

Thanks, Spence.

Gus

 
40calflinter 
36 Cal.
Posts: 57
40calflinter
07-12-18 07:31 PM - Post#1693489    

    In response to Artificer

Thank You everyone for the information and education, on French weapons.

 
hunts4deer 
40 Cal.
Posts: 164
07-17-18 03:24 PM - Post#1693900    

    In response to 40calflinter

For a French Marine, or Troupes de Terre soldier, the 1728 is correct. It is documented that Officers might carry the Fusil de Chasse. Generally, the soldier would not.

 
Icon Legend Permissions Topic Options
Print Topic


442 Views
Welcome Guest...
Enter your Login Name and password to login. If you do not have a username you can register one here

Login Name

Password

Remember me. Help



Login Not Working?...

Registered Members
Total: 32128
Todays
Birthdays
9-18russellshaffer
9-18DLJ6
9-18MOwoodsman
Current Quote
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
~ Sir Winston Churchill

PRIVACY POLICY
FusionBB™ Version 3.0 FINAL | ©2003-2010 InteractivePHP, Inc.
Execution time: 0.478 seconds.   Total Queries: 53  
All times are (GMT-5). Current time is 01:40 AM
Top