Lee REAL & Shallow Grooves

My cast 320 grn REALs measure about .517” across the widest driving band. I need a felt wad under it to shoot well through my ~.502 x .520” Lyman Deerstalker. Were these designed for deeper grooved barrels or does anyone shoot them in a shallow grooved barrel? I assume they’d be hard to load in a shallow grooved barrel.

And has anyone had good results in a faster twist (32” or faster)? Seems the few times I’ve read of people trying them they find they don’t do well.

I tried that 320gr. REAL in a shallow groove, 1:28" twist Green Mountain bbl. several years ago and got only so-so accuracy v. excellent accuracy from a [home cast] T/C Maxi-Ball. The powder charge in both instances was 80gr. FFg + a cardboard wad over the powder charge.

The accuracy problem I experienced wasn't intrinsic to the
design of the REAL*, but its dimension. I.e., my mold cast too small for that bbl. Paper patching significantly improved things, but the REAL never was the equal of the Maxi-Ball in that bbl.


*In a 1:48" twist .45cal. T/C Hawken bbl., the REAL matched the T/C Maxi-Ball's accuracy. Both conicals were home cast.

Rodwha,

There are probably 50+ threads about using Lee R.E.A.L. slugs on this site. I believe that folks who can't get them to shoot well is mostly due to not producing quality castings and not being willing to work up a load. I have great success with ALL the Lee REAL bullets in .45, .50, .54, & .58 caliber rifles, both deep groove and shallow, fast (1 in 28") and moderate (1 in 48") twist rifles. In most of my rifles, an over powder wad is required for good accuracy. Some like more lube than others. Generally, a fast twist rifle may not shoot accurately at as high velocity as one with a slower twist in the same caliber. ALL will shoot accurately at reasonable hunting velocity. I make my own hard felt wads which I load un-lubed.

I cast mine from pure lead with 1/2% tin added to get good mould fill out. I also cast at high temperature of 800 degrees controlled by electronic thermocouple. I mostly use a Lee 10 pound bottom pour pot, but dipper cast the larger ones. Crisp, properly filled out castings are essential for accuracy.

Working up a load requires adhering to scientific principles and is not rocket science. However, most shooters do not know how to change only one variable at a time and insure that only everything else stays the same. Then there those who really can't load with uniformity or shoot accurately to begin with but are quick to add their negative opinions.

I’m at a loss for the REALs being undersized.

I bought some cast 320 grn REALs to try in my 1:48” deep groove Lyman rifle. I punched some felt wads having read they often need them. My first shot without a wad had keyholed at 50 yds and was about a foot left and several inches low. The next two shots with a wad were just under the bull and nearly touching so I bought a mold.

But I’m wanting a barrel specifically set up for hunting fields. I’m contemplating a Malcolm style scope or peep sights using either a Trade Rifle barrel or possibly a custom barrel to drop into my Lyman as I like the idea of several barrels much like a T/C Contender. Lyman also makes a shallow groove 1:48” Deerstalker barrel.

Having moved I can’t seem to find a scrap yard that will sell cheap lead. But I think this is a bit of a blessing as I figured once I get low on lead I’ll order from RotoMetals and get the ingots with 2% tin to help with fill out much like with you as I have issues with my pistol conicals filling out properly and my Lee pot is turned all the way up.

Oh, by the way, I attempted to reply to your message but your inbox is full or something.

I shot Lee REALs w/o wad out of a 1-20 twist shallow grooved 54 with good results although some what limited because I've only done it a couple times. First time was at 25y and second was at 50y. It loaded pretty much the same as the deeper grooved bores, after the initial smack, they went down fine. Over at castboolits they are always selling lead and frequently the soft but not pure stick on WWs.

Interesting. Figured they’d be hard to load in a shallow groove barrel.

rodwha said:

My cast 320 grn REALs measure about .517” across the widest driving band.

Click to expand...

That seems a bit small, making me wonder about "fill" in your mold. Adding just a bit of tin and keeping casting temps high as noted by others has resulted in a little more diameter and very good accuracy with my own.

Here's an interesting thought for you. A bud likes REALs a lot, but can't be bothered with "fiddly" casting as he puts it. He gets stellar accuracy with his rifle (Lyman GPH) by wrapping his REALs with a couple of layers of Teflon plumber's tape and not even bothering to lube them. I haven't tried it myself, but have sure admired his results on targets. It kinda make sense when you think of the tape resulting in a better fit to the grooves while also providing "lube" of sorts.

wrapping his REALs with a couple of layers of Teflon plumber's tape and not even bothering to lube them.

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Teflon plumber's tape.....,

Hmmmmmm :hmm:

LD

It doesn't melt n coat the barrel with "stuff"??

Never has for anyone I know. "Paper patch" shooters I know have been using it for years.

Loyalist Dave said:

wrapping his REALs with a couple of layers of Teflon plumber's tape and not even bothering to lube them.

Click to expand...

Teflon plumber's tape.....,

Hmmmmmm :hmm:

LD

Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly... I just may try this.

I haven't been shooting my REALs much lately because I just couldn't get them to group as well as PRBs in my Cabelas rifle (1:48 twist). The best combo I came up with was a boolit cast from "harder lead" and lubed with Lee Alox on top of a hard felt wad lubed with mink oil and 85gr of Graf's FFG. By "harder lead" I mean a 3:1 ratio of stick on WW and a hunk of lead alloy from the scrap yard that had a little ring to it when I dropped on my garage floor. :idunno:

Edit: shooting the 54cal 380gr variety BTW.

Loyalist Dave said:

wrapping his REALs with a couple of layers of Teflon plumber's tape and not even bothering to lube them.

Click to expand...

Teflon plumber's tape.....,

Hmmmmmm :hmm:

LD

Click to expand...

I tried this method with 5 REALs at the range today. Just 25 yards and had a bit of a hang fire on the 4th shot that threw me off a bit. But, I was pretty happy with the results for a first attempt. Didn't see any signs of leaving anything behind in the bore that was of concern.

380gr REAL, 85gr Graf's FFG, hard felt wad lubed with mink oil.

Looking pretty promising, isn't it?

Yes!
I must admit I was more than a little skeptical. Gonna wrap a few more tonight and keep tweaking.

That's a nice group but the proof of the pudding will only come when the range is extended to 50 or more yards.

I've seen very unstable conicals produce a nice pattern at 25 yards but keyhole by the time they reached 50 yards.

Good luck.

This has been my experience with the REALs so far. I've had two other loads that were looking acceptable at 25 yards but were a disaster at 50 and didn't even try beyond that. So, not counting my chickens before they hatch...

If all else fails, I know my trusty load for PRBs will get the job done. Just like experimenting in the "off-season."

That was my experience with 48" twist in .40 barrels, paper patched and lubed lead. At fifty yards they weren't reliably grouping. While developing loads with .41 molds things would be looking good, I'd be getting excited and then the group would open up. Plenty accurate for bambis but not good enough for happy plinking. But I'll still work with whatever new idea comes to mind.

Did some additional testing on REALs today in my garage to see how well they would stay on the powder charge if turned upside down and given a few good shakes. I carry my rifle muzzle down in my hunting pack's built in scabbard so my hands are free in tough terrain. The tests don't fully recapitulate true field conditions but here is the test and the results.

Test:
4 different conicals (Hornady GP [control], REAL wrapped in Teflon tape, REAL lubed with Alox, REAL cast from hard lead and lubed with Alox) loaded into an unfouled barrel with no powder or wad. Turned upside down and given 10 vigorous downward shakes to simulate the jarring from hiking.

Results:
The Hornady GP was the only conical that did not travel towards the muzzle after the 10 shakes. Same results in both my Cabela's rifles (Hawken and Sporterized Hawken).

Here's a picture to show how each conical engaged the rifling in my Cabela's Hawken with 1:48 twist.



Maybe I can improve my casting technique to fix this, but for this coming season I'll be sticking with PRBs.

Thought this might be of interest to some on the board. Interested to hear any thoughts.