Stops

I have a Pedersoli Mortimer rifle and have noticed that when the lock is actuated , the lower jaw of the cock comes to rest against the pan flashguard.
The flashguard now has quite a distinct dent in it .
The trigger has become progressively harder to use and is now at the point where accuracy has begun to suffer .
Upon dismantling the lock , I found that the journal of the tumbler and the lockplate are significantly worn in one spot indicating a shock loading.


There are no "stops" on this lock to limit the movement of the tumbler or the cock .

I have searched in vain to find a photo or diagram of an original Mortimer to see if it had any stops included in the manufacture .
I wonder if any members here have an original or could direct me to a good drawing of an original Mortimer lock .
Thank you .

The usual stop for a flintlock is the shoulder on the cock itself, which comes to rest on the plate. is that absent or just too high to stop the cock before it hits the pan?

Elnathan said:

The usual stop for a flintlock is the shoulder on the cock itself, which comes to rest on the plate. is that absent or just too high to stop the cock before it hits the pan?

Click to expand...

The cock does contact the top of the lockplate , but only lightly , the edge of the pan has taken the brunt of the force as it is quite heavily gouged .
I have seen photos of tumblers with a "half moon" cutout which seems to make contact with a stop on the internal surface of the lockplate .
I wonder if the original Mortimers had something like that .

Sounds like the lock wasn't well inspected at the factory. It seems the cock where it engages the upper edge of the lock plate to stop had a little too much metal removed so over-travels a fraction of an inch, and impacts the fence on the pan. As a result there are now problems with your tumbler, which also might be "soft". I'd suggest you replace both the cock and the tumbler, and if the problem still persists, remove just enough of the pan fence so that the cock properly comes to rest on the top edge of the lock plate.

LD

I got an L&R RPL lock for a TC, the cock stop on the cock only slightly hit the corner of the lock plate.

I have worked on enough flintlocks to instantly recognize that the lock wasn't properly assembled. The cock wasn't installed deeply enough on the tumbler shaft.

I could have fixed it with some filing but sent it back to L&R because it was a new lock. They did a lousy job of fixing it so I got out my file and finished the job. The stop had full contact after the fix.

I have come to the conclusion that Pedersoli deliberately made this lock without any internal stops and they expect the cock to come to rest on the edge of the pan and the shoulder of the cock to hit the top of the lockplate at the same time .

Clearly mine was not quite right when it left the factory . I have contacted them and the only advice I gained was to never actuate the lock without a flint in the jaw and to always make sure that the frizzen is closed .

Looking at pictures of Pedersoli Mortimer locks on the internet , reveals lockplates with quite significant gouges where the cock has hit the top edge of the lockplate and in all cases the cock has come to rest on the edge of the pan .
Which suggests to me that the colour case hardened finish is a chemical colouring of the surface and not true case hardening .

One lives and learns

I cannot believe that the original Mortimers were constructed in this manner.

Hi,
Late flint period locks of the type on the "Mortimer" had no shoulders to hit the plate and were stopped by the lower jaw of the cock hitting the fence on the pan. Your problem is that the lock plate, cock, and apparently internals were not hardened and tempered properly. I also suspect that your frizzen spring tension on the frizzen is weak. It should offer a lot of resistance to kicking the frizzen forward. The lock on the Pedersoli Mortimer only bears a superficial likeness to the high quality original English locks of that design.

dave

The lock on the Pedersoli Mortimer only bears a superficial likeness to the high quality original English locks of that design.

Click to expand...

Say that "Isn't So"! Pedersoli didn't closely copy an historic item? The quality of their product is less than the original?

:haha:

LD

Say that "Isn't So"! Pedersoli didn't closely copy an historic item? The quality of their product is less than the original?

:haha:

LD[/quote]

I am glad you find it so funny .

I like to mock those that think Pedersoli is the end-all of muzzleloading guns, who have commented in the past on previous threads yes, and Mr. Person gave me new evidence beyond my personal, first hand experience, allowing such... :wink:

LD

Dave Person said:

Hi,
Late flint period locks of the type on the "Mortimer" had no shoulders to hit the plate and were stopped by the lower jaw of the cock hitting the fence on the pan. Your problem is that the lock plate, cock, and apparently internals were not hardened and tempered properly. I also suspect that your frizzen spring tension on the frizzen is weak. It should offer a lot of resistance to kicking the frizzen forward. The lock on the Pedersoli Mortimer only bears a superficial likeness to the high quality original English locks of that design.

dave

Click to expand...

Thank you Dave . I think you are right about the quality of this lock , had it been constructed to a higher standard , it would no doubt have performed better .It has always been a reliable sparker though.
I have looked at several photos of H W Mortimer flintlock long guns and they show the cock at rest before it collides with the pan rain shroud[?] . However the pistol locks do show that the cock comes to rest upon the pan shroud .
Unfortunately I have been unable to find a photo of an original tumbler .
The Rifleshoppe has a photo of a lock where the cock shows a distinct shoulder , no doubt to provide a stopping surface .

Loyalist Dave said:

I like to mock those that think Pedersoli is the end-all of muzzleloading guns,

LD

Click to expand...

Definition of mockery
plural mockeries
1 : insulting or contemptuous action or speech

Only you will know whether or not this is a true reflection of your character.

The following link shows the stop on the cock that was intended to hit the lock plate, on an original Mortimer lock. Not sure if the repro Mortimer would allow building up the metal by welding on the stop or making a stop there, if one is not evident on the cock of your lock? It might require clearance of the wood apron around the lock plate?
http://therifleshoppe.com/catalog_pages/english_locks_sights/(616).htm

Also, what about Tig Welding or even low temp silver soldering a piece of steel onto the top/rear of the tumbler so it would hit the bridle sooner and thus stop the forward travel of the cock?

Gus

Thank you Gus .
That is the photo that I was referring to . ( posting photos in a thread is beyond my capabilities ).
I think that tig welding a surface on the cock is a good idea .
I have an L and R lock that has a bridle stop on the tumbler. I may copy that also.
Both are good ideas , thank you for your positive contribution .

Hi Dodger,
Yes, on really good locks the tumbler hits the back of the bridle just as the lower jaw hits the pan. I've worked on several Pedersoli Mortimer locks to improve their function. I wish you and others could actually handle a first quality English lock from that period and of that design. They are remarkable achievements of craft and design. Many later versions had 2 screws in the upper part of the bridle and another holding the sear. That gave the bridle great strength to resist the force of the tumbler hitting the back of the bridle and fence. These locks were the fastest and most reliable flintlocks ever made and combined with the patent stepped breech, gave the evolving percussion system a real run for its money.

dave

dodger said:

Thank you Gus .
That is the photo that I was referring to . ( posting photos in a thread is beyond my capabilities ).
I think that tig welding a surface on the cock is a good idea .
I have an L and R lock that has a bridle stop on the tumbler. I may copy that also.
Both are good ideas , thank you for your positive contribution .

Click to expand...

Hi Dodger,

You are most welcome.

A good friend in my unit showed me his repro all steel Highland pistol that had a stop on the cock, but was not heat treated properly. It had worn to the point it was gouged up and not working properly anymore. Tig Welding up the area, filing it back to proper shape and then heat treating fixed it.

I don't know what you know about filing/shaping metal that has been Tig welded, so if you already know this, please ignore.

The surface "skin" of the welded metal is often extremely hard and you have to "get through" that surface hardness to file it with regular files. We did a LOT of that on the rifles we built in the Corps and had to file the welded metal down to a very precise joint between recoil blocks nd receivers. Carbide hand files made short work of it, but we could only afford those files for the Big Team and not the regular production section. So we used large disc sanders and/or rotary stones in a Dremel like tool to "break through" that hardened outer layer of Tig welded metal to enable us to hand file the rest to shape. I bring this up because when doing Tig Welding for such a repair, you need extra metal in the weld so you can break through the hardened skin and file the metal to the shape you need. If you explain this to a Tig Welder, they will know what you are talking about.

Since I doubt Pedersoli will tell you what kind of steel alloy the cock is made from, that pretty much rules out standard heat treating and annealing after the new shoulder is formed. In that case, I would suggest a thorough case hardening as Dave Person and others have mentioned before.

Gus