Rare Centre Fire Smoothbore

Enclosed are images which may interest members of a rare centre fire percussion sxs shotgun .This gun is pre 1840 and patented by Joseph Bentley and known has The Centre Fire Safety Gun. Joseph Bentley had a manufacturing business at 14 St Marys -Row Birmingham , he also had a shop at 12, South Castle -Street Liverpool. Has I said this is a rare patent cased with all accessors I have only seen another one which was also cased, maybe because it is rare is why it never caught on to any extent but it does show the craftmanship of English gun making.
Feltwad

Thanks for showing that. Unusual arrangement of the hammer with the nipples. Neat shotty.

Beautiful gun and really cool that the case and accessories are all there!!

Real pretty gun. Thanks for sharing.

Yes, indeed, thank you for showing that lovely cased gun.

I wonder, was this type of breech system rare because as fouling accumulated, it was harder or too hard for the flame from the cap to get through the fouling into the main charge? Or was it just a matter of style that not enough customers embraced?

Gus

The Centre Fire Safety Gun.

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Perhaps the nipple location and angle referenced to where the shooter put his cheek made it less likely some of the exploding cap would strike the face/eye of the shooter..., at least in theory?


LD

Dave,

The idea was that the charge was ignited right in the centre at the breech, so they performed Very well. A good lot if not most were made by Samuel and Charles Smith in London.
They used an "Imperial" percussion cap, somewhat larger then the common # 11, and larger than the old Eley No 26.

I have an "Improved Central fire" retailed by E Winton down in Tiverton. Locks are top notch by Joseph Jones of Wolverhampton. (four pin bridle) Could well be S&C Smith's work, but cannot say for sure.

Best,
Richard.

Winton, "Improved Central Fire".

Lovely guns .
An early form of inline muzzleloader perhaps ?

Looking at Richard's gun , one wonders if the [apparently] slender wood between the locks might make the gun less robust than a more conventional gun . This might explain why this type of gun was less popular amongst typically conservative gun buyers.

RJDH said:

Winton, "Improved Central Fire".

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Hi Richard,

WOW, this must be "my week" to see bridles I have never seen or heard of before. First Stophel showed a bridle that only covered tumbler and not the sear and now this most sophisticated Bridle I have ever seen or heard about!

That Bridle is downright amazing!! It has not two, but three screws to hold it in place. It goes over what looks like a stud instead of a sear screw and that must allow the sear and tumbler to operate freely like glass. Then it even goes over the Sear Spring to keep it in position and not allow it to “pop loose” in use. I’ve only seen one or two Sear Springs that ever popped loose during firing and that was always due to really poor design or fitting of the Sear Spring, but that is impossible with this Bridle.

Also have to mention the forward part of the sear looks like it was designed for strength and longevity.

That lock truly shows the hand of a Master Gunsmith! :bow:

Thank you for showing it. :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

Gus

dodger said:

Lovely guns .
An early form of inline muzzleloader perhaps ?

Looking at Richard's gun , one wonders if the [apparently] slender wood between the locks might make the gun less robust than a more conventional gun . This might explain why this type of gun was less popular amongst typically conservative gun buyers.

Click to expand...

The direction of the hammer did give a direct fire to the centre of the charge , the safety part is the mettle shield that encircles the hammer which reduces any cap debris from striking the shooters face . inline definitely not
Feltwad

Actually, if one counts the sear spring screw, there are FOUR screws holding that bridle on in Richards's gun.

From purely technical curiosity, I would love to examine that lock to see how they fitted the bridle and other parts.

Gus

Feltwad said:

The direction of the hammer did give a direct fire to the centre of the charge , the safety part is the mettle shield that encircles the hammer which reduces any cap debris from striking the shooters face . inline definitely not
Feltwad

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Ah, wondered what they believed was the "safety" part. Thanks for adding that explanation.

Gus

Gus,

I forget who said what in the above, but the locks are no closer together than on a regular percussion gun I don't think. Feltwad's gun was made by Joseph Bentley, but as I said many were made my S&C Smith, and were high end in quality And price!

(As was Feltwad's.)
Gus,
If I ever get caught up with spring work and ready for our annual shoot, I'll send you more photos of four pin locks.
Here's one for now, (or a pair actually) Very different , by Thomas Boss. (He made locks before he became a gunmaker in his own right.)
Gun was made in 1837 and signed T Boss. (No 149)
Found another photo, of locks on a double by John Blissett, 322 High Holborn.
These are very nice locks by Joseph Brazier, Ashes.
The John Blissett has been a favourite since about 1972....

Photos in wrong order, the single lock is from the Blissett, (Brazier locks) and the pair are the Boss.

The Winton was not yet cleaned up in the above photos .

Highest regards,
Richard.

Hi Richard,

Well, it is pretty obvious I am not used to working really expensive original locks, outside a Nicolas Boutet circa. 1810 saw handled dueling/target pistol.

I very much appreciate the craftsmanship involved in making and fitting those "four pin" bridles.

Gus

Artificer said:

Hi Richard,

Well, it is pretty obvious I am not used to working really expensive original locks, outside a Nicolas Boutet circa. 1810 saw handled dueling/target pistol.

I very much appreciate the craftsmanship involved in making and fitting those "four pin" bridles.

Gus

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Enclosed are images of the Bentley Patent lock plates and workings
Feltwad


Reverse side

Close up of hammer

Notice the safety shield also the hammer stops next to the tumbler square

Lock assembled

Very interesting. Thank you.

Gus

You never disappoint.... :thumbsup:

Colorado Clyde said:

You never disappoint.... :thumbsup:

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Thanks for the kind words on this unusual piece.
Feltwad :bow:

Thank you for the photos of these locks Mr G.

Very different to say the least!
One problem with many percussion guns, is the dog-leg in between the nipple and main charge, this type of lock (plus the one I showed further up the thread), totally alleviate this problem.

Thank you again,

Richard.