Cleaning jag & threaded Ramrod Tip

I recently heard that Rev War riflemen would load, starting with their second shot, by placing a [damp?] patch on top of the freshly started ball/patch at the muzzle, and using a ramrod with a cleaning jag, would then ram down the ball, thus the damp patch would wrap around the cleaning jag, as the ball/patch for the second (and further additional) shot was rammed down and seated on the powder. When the jag/patch was removed on the end of the ramrod, it had swabbed the bore from the seated ball/patch to the muzzle. So the bore would get cleaned each shot, as the ball/patch was loaded onto the powder charge, and thus riflemen could shoot many shots before having to take time to heavily swab the bore.

So the question is...,

When did the cleaning jag come into common use with a threaded tip on one end of the ramrod?

:idunno:

LD

Loyalist Dave said:

I recently heard that Rev War riflemen would load, starting with their second shot, by placing a [damp?] patch on top of the freshly started ball/patch at the muzzle, and using a ramrod with a cleaning jag, would then ram down the ball, thus the damp patch would wrap around the cleaning jag, as the ball/patch for the second (and further additional) shot was rammed down and seated on the powder. When the jag/patch was removed on the end of the ramrod, it had swabbed the bore from the seated ball/patch to the muzzle. So the bore would get cleaned each shot, as the ball/patch was loaded onto the powder charge, and thus riflemen could shoot many shots before having to take time to heavily swab the bore.

So the question is...,

When did the cleaning jag come into common use with a threaded tip on one end of the ramrod?

:idunno:

LD

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That's an interesting notion. Where did you "hear" that?
I don't know about threaded but in museums one will commonly see rods with whittled ends that are, in shape, identical to many of the brass jags we use today. Wood works just fine. I turn and make jags and bore protectors from wood on my lathe. They work just like brass.

Loyalist Dave said:

When did the cleaning jag come into common use with a threaded tip on one end of the ramrod?

Click to expand...

They have been around for a while.

_Military Antiquities: Respecting a History of the English Army, from the conquest to the present time_, Volume 2, By Francis Grose, 1619

"...it is moreover requisite, that a souldier keepe his cocke with oyle free in falling, and his peece bright without rusting; neither must he want his necessarie tooles, as a scowrer, tirebale and worme, having every one a vice to turne into the end of the scouring sticke,...."

Spence

George said:

Loyalist Dave said:

When did the cleaning jag come into common use with a threaded tip on one end of the ramrod?

Click to expand...

They have been around for a while.

_Military Antiquities: Respecting a History of the English Army, from the conquest to the present time_, Volume 2, By Francis Grose, 1619

"...it is moreover requisite, that a souldier keepe his cocke with oyle free in falling, and his peece bright without rusting; neither must he want his necessarie tooles, as a scowrer, tirebale and worme, having every one a vice to turne into the end of the scouring sticke,...."

Spence

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Nice early quote, Spence, though I’m fairly certain the author’s reference to a worm is exactly like the worms we think of when we think tow worm. Not something with which you would push down a patched ball.

Dave, where did you hear/read about jags in the 18th century? I’ve only ever seen and read about extant tow worms. Very curious. If loading with a jag was common practice, it would lead that they were using the thin, tapered end of the rod to screw on some sort of a jag, which is questionable in and of itself. I suppose it’s possible that some had turned wood ends on the big end. We have no evidence of that in the 18th century, though, as far as I know.

George said:

as a scowrer, tirebale and worme,

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What's a tirebale? I googled it but all I could find is this.

:rotf:

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Loyalist Dave said:

I recently heard that Rev War riflemen would load, starting with their second shot, by placing a [damp?] patch on top of the freshly started ball/patch at the muzzle, and using a ramrod with a cleaning jag, would then ram down the ball, thus the damp patch would wrap around the cleaning jag, as the ball/patch for the second (and further additional) shot was rammed down and seated on the powder. When the jag/patch was removed on the end of the ramrod, it had swabbed the bore from the seated ball/patch to the muzzle. So the bore would get cleaned each shot, as the ball/patch was loaded onto the powder charge, and thus riflemen could shoot many shots before having to take time to heavily swab the bore.

So the question is...,

When did the cleaning jag come into common use with a threaded tip on one end of the ramrod?

:idunno:

LD

Click to expand...

Scroll down . http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/show...aa9d4a7082411bb144697d5f&t=15381&page=1&pp=30

EUREKA!

So there was at least one or two variations of rod-tip tools that would allow one to do just as suggested. At least when the first matchlocks appeared.

I'm not sure that a screw-tip was common on the rifles used in the AWI, but at least it might have happened.

Rifleman1776 wrote:
That's an interesting notion. Where did you "hear" that?

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It was a question on another forum, a newbie had been to some historic site and saw a flintlock shooter, and related what he'd been told by that fellow.

I don't doubt that it could be done without a jag, I just questioned that it was done with a jag, and I wonder if it was common procedure..., or if the fellow merely worked it out for himself and assumes that it must have been so back then.

Just for fun... since I use a plain ramrod without even a tip reinforced with brass to load..., I'm going to try it with a patch on a string between the ball and the ramrod tip. I've cleaned my empty rifle barrel this way and not had the patch and string jam the ramrod up, so I should be OK ramming the ball down the bore and swabbing at the same time...., unless the string breaks when I pull to extract the patch. :redface:

LD

First of all, I hope Rich Pierce notices this thread and chimes in.

Dave,

Did you see the following thread where we discussed ramrod tips going back quite a ways and into the 18th century and before?
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/306957/tp/1/

I have a little more information I just found:

In George Neumann's "Collectors Encyclopedia of the American Revolution, Page 264, Photo Illustration No. 11 shows a threaded Worm that George described as for an "American Rifle circa 1775-1800"

"Gun Tools, Their History and Identification, Vol. I" by Shaffer, Rutledge and Dorsey lists on page 122 lists a threaded "Early Style .38 Caliber Ball Screw" for Kentucky type and early American rifles. "The wooden Ramrod of those rifles would have female-threaded metal tip, into which the tool would screw." It also mentions a similar one in "Firearms in Colonial America," by Peterson.

I saved what I consider to be at least a slightly more to much more authoritative source for last. "Firearms in Colonial America: The Impact on History and Technology 1492-1792" by M.L. Brown. (The author of this book got many to most of his photo's of original items from the Smithsonian and I purchased my copy there in the early 1980's.) Page 246. "Gunsmithing Tools and Cleaning Implements (18th/19th Century) Six Bullet Worms, 3 to 4 inches long." Actually four of the "Bullet Worms" shown are combination Worms and Ball Pullers. The fifth and six are just Ball Pullers and not Worms and look most likely of the six tools to possibly go back to the late 18th century.

Unfortunately none of this information answers how COMMON these tools were and perhaps more importantly when they became "common." I have my own speculation, but I would love to see Rich Pierce's thoughts on this.

Gus

Dodger,

I'm so pleased to see you linking Michael's thread regarding the scourers, pullers and jags!
A wealth of information there. Pleased you are using this fantastic resource.

Gus,

PLeased you added the link re. this topic!

I have not forgotten I owe you an email or 3, just been so tied up with spring work up here.

Will get back to you Soon I hope!!

Best regards,
Richard.

Hi Dodger,

I really enjoyed looking at those pics, but especially the tips that look sort of like opposing flattened spoons that are most likely "scourer" tips.

Fig. 10 in the following link shows a "scrouring rod" or "sticke" from Diderot's Encyclopedia. I purchased my set back in the 1980's and often wondered the edges of the scouring wings must have been somewhat square on the ends to scour the bore, but not be sharpened ends. The close ups of the scouring tips in the link you provided were highly interesting because it really shows them well. http://artflx.uchicago.edu/images/encyclopedie/V18/plate_18_9_4.jpeg

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the note. Plenty of time to respond when your crops are well in the ground.

Gus

Seems like an interesting idea, not sure about its commonality in the colonial and revolutionary period. If one were to try it, I would wonder if there is any concern for pulling the ball off the powder as the rod/jag/patch is withdrawn, assuming one uses a tight fitting jag/cleaning patch combination. I know I've had a tight, wet patch combo generate enough suction to suck the patch off the jag and down the bore just as it's removed from the muzzle while cleaning.

Hi Brokennock,

A Worm was probably THE most common accessory in the period for any gun, rifle or pistol. This was used both to wrap tow around to clean the gun and also the sharp end would stick/grab loose tow in the bore. Some Worms looked like coil springs and other worms that screwed onto the ramrod or steel rammer had two sharp points.

Patches were not common until the at least the 19th century, but even so, they could/can also be easily "speared" by the sharp point/s of the worm.

Gus

Brokennock said:

Seems like an interesting idea, not sure about its commonality in the colonial and revolutionary period. If one were to try it, I would wonder if there is any concern for pulling the ball off the powder as the rod/jag/patch is withdrawn, assuming one uses a tight fitting jag/cleaning patch combination. I know I've had a tight, wet patch combo generate enough suction to suck the patch off the jag and down the bore just as it's removed from the muzzle while cleaning.

Click to expand...

Cut at the muzzle no worry at all but oversize patch uh? maybe.

Over a few ten thousand bench and cross stick shots cut at the muzzle with a stainless range rod and a brass cupped cleaning jag never worried about a ball getting pulled.

Ball seater /cleaning jag was from TOW

As you stated pulled of the cleaning jag you created some suction! and the vent or nipple was plugged off to do that.

Artificer said:

Patches were not common until the at least the 19th century, but even so, they could/can also be easily "speared" by the sharp point/s of the worm.

Gus

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:redface: Uh-oh. I meant CLEANING patches were not common until at least the 19th century. Sorry about any confusion there.

Gus

I meant CLEANING patches were not common until at least the 19th century

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It had not occured to me that cloth cleaning patches were not used, and that tow would've been what they had and used a worm, so..., nice conjecture, but probably not "how it was done".

Thanks Gus

LD

Hi Dave,

The problem for us is cleaning an 18th century rifle was probably so routine to them, they never thought about writing down much about it.

The following original letter gives us some clues, though:

"Christiansbrunn, the 9th September, 1773

Most valued Friend Martin Baer,

At your request I have prepared [completed/finished] a good rifle and sent it over to Mr. John Hopson together with 4 pounds of Powder. The rifle is decorated [inlaid] with silver wire and well made, as well as tested and she shoots right well. It has a double trigger, so that you can fire with the triggers either unset or set. Between the triggers there is a screw with which you can make it lighter or harder to fire. There is also a ball puller with which you can pull the ball out no matter how rusty she gets. She costs 8 pounds all together and with the powder @ 3 shillings per pound makes twelve shillings, for a total of L8.12.-. Because it is very good powder I have added two pounds more than you requested. I hope it will suit you well. You can write me a couple lines to let me know how you like it. Together with friendliest greetings I am your faithful

friend and servant,

Christian Oerter

Gunmaker"

I have come to regard that letter as a virtual Diamond Mine of information.

This is the earliest use of the term "Ball Puller" I have ever run across. Even long before this letter, the term "Ball Screw" seemed to have been the most common way they described this item and also for many decades later. Maybe George has more early examples of the use of the term "Ball Puller?"

Though it is only conjecture, I think it safe to assume the gunsmith was talking about a Ball Puller that screwed into a tip on the ramrod. Though the gunsmith does not mention it, it also could have been a "combination" Worm and Ball Screw, as the gunsmith does not mention a Worm. Yes, I realize that is darn thin evidence for a combination tool, though. It is also possible the gunsmith included a detachable "screw in" type worm as well and just didn't feel the need to mention it. The gunsmith did not mention he supplied a ball mold, either, but I can't imagine the gunsmith would not have supplied one with the rifle.

It is very interesting to me the gunsmith mentioned "no matter how rusty she gets." I don't know if the gunsmith meant that the lands and especially the grooves would normally be expected to get rusty OR if he was writing about a "worse case scenario."

Some of the original documentation Spence and others have posted seems to me that either period cleaning methods were not as good as we might do or if it was just the result of staying out on the frontier for a long time and not being able to clean the guns as well as they could have done?

Anyway, the above original letter is documentation of at least one 18th century rifle that had some kind of ramrod tip and ball puller.

I also think we have to sort of ignore of how common modern cloth cleaning patches have become, when looking back to the 18th century. Even back in the early part of the 20th century, cloth patches to clean rifles were usually hand washed and re-used time and again until there were just threads left.

Oh, BTW Dave, how is that Miroku Bess you bought and talked about re-building coming along?

Gus

Artificer said:

Anyway, the above original letter is documentation of at least one 18th century rifle that had some kind of ramrod tip and ball puller.

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DeWitt Bailey illustrates a German military rifle that has a combo worm-screw in British Military Flintlock Rifles on, I think, page 65. He doesn't show the end of the ramrod, but it is a wooden rod so some sort of tip can be inferred.

I don't see any reason to doubt that at least some American rifles were equipped with ramrod ends that took a screw-on worm and/or ball puller.

I was hoping that Rich Pierce and perhaps Dave Person would chime in about any original ramrod tips they have seen on original guns.

Some folks have made threaded tips by brazing "Iron" or probably steel shim stock to a threaded Iron or Steel disc to form the threaded tip. I don't know if that is from copying originals or if from experimental archeology?

I know sheet brass was available in the period to make a ramrod tip, but it would have been a LOT more expensive than sheet Iron. British Ordnance had formed Sheet metal tips placed on the wood ramrods for Muskets prior to them switching over to Iron/Steel Rammers. Cast Brass ramrod tip Buttons were used on some fowling pieces. But unless I'm mistaken and I could be, neither the military sheet brass tips nor the cast buttons were threaded? However, a cast brass tip could have been drilled and threaded.

I have been trying for hours to think of the 18th century terminology for using materials that are less dissimilar when used together and cannot remember it. I think they would have preferred to use Iron to make the ramrod tips, because they would screw an Iron or Steel Worm or Ball Screw onto it. I think they would have seen Brass as both too expensive and as too soft to use when Iron/Steel Tips were screwed into it. However, this is only speculation on my part from what I know of in the period.

Gus