• This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.



    Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades

London made copy of Lancaster Flintlock Rifle

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Hi Gus,
The name on the lock "Ketland & Co." indicates it was made between 1785 and 1800 probably in Birmingham but marked "London" more marketing purposes. I wish the museum showed better photos so you could see the carving.

dave
 
Thanks Dave,

Since I am not very familiar with the English Period "Repro's" of American Long Rifles, I was hoping more knowledgeable folks would chime in on this one.

I was wondering if that patch box was a good "repro" of a period Lancaster one, or if it is completely "English."

Gus
 
Dave,
Just curious, how do they confirm that it's English built, and not American built with an English lock and an imported, English barrel that had been proofed? Is the "teardrop" at the rear of the lock mortise one of the clues? I find that piece fascinating.

LD
 
Hi LD,
A slew of Lancaster style rifles were made in England for the indian and frontier trade during and after Rev War. William Wilson, Robert Barnett, and Willian Grice were the primary contractors during the Rev War. The guns were all similar and included carving behind the cheek piece and barrel tang. Some had wood patchboxes, others had brass ones. It seems they may have copied a rifle by John Newcomer. After the Rev War, Wilson had a virtual monopoly on the trade shipping hundreds of these rifles to America. In the 1790's he lost his monopoly and I suspect the rifle in the NRA museum was from this period because of the Ketland & Co. lock. It is not clear who marketed to the trade at that time but by 1800, Ketland had large contracts. After 1800 or so the style changed and was simplified probably to shave costs. The guns should have London, private Tower, or early Birmingham proofs on the barrels. The stocks are English walnut.


dave
 
Hi Dave,

I found that information very interesting. Thank you.

I was kind of surprised to read William Grice was one of the main contractors during the AWI, as he had already been in the gunmaking business for many years at that time and had long supplied many Military Arms to the Board of Ordnance. I looked it up and he died "suddenly in London July 24th 1790, Aged 76 Years." It also mentions he had an office in London. https://birminghamcathedral.wordpress.com/2016/04/05/william-grice-the-gunmaker/

Until you mentioned it, I never thought about at least the Gunmakers of Birmingham, who did the most/largest business with the British Government, would have required at least some kind of offices in London. This because Birmingham is 121 miles or more from the outskirts of London. At 20 to 25 miles a day by coach, that was at least a four to five or even six day journey, depending on the weather.

Gus
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The NRA example has complete carving behind the cheekpiece, which sets it apart from the earlier examples in DeWitte Bailey's book and other places. Those were missing the lower left-hand volute. Evidently the American rifle used as a model for the early ones had damaged carving.

It also has a daisy patchbox instead of the plain cast lid that some of Bailey's examples have, plus (I think) slightly more graceful architecture that shows a better grasp of American stocking conventions and less Germanic influence.

So, yeah, probably later than Revolutionary War.
 
Artificer said:
Thanks Dave,

Since I am not very familiar with the English Period "Repro's" of American Long Rifles, I was hoping more knowledgeable folks would chime in on this one.

I was wondering if that patch box was a good "repro" of a period Lancaster one, or if it is completely "English."

Gus

For those interested in learning more about these English Pattern Trade Rifles, George Shumway first wrote about them in an eight part series of articles that ran from the February 1982 issue of Buckskin Report through the November 1982 issue. Shumway presented an updated paper on them in Proceedings of the 1984 Trade Gun Conference - Part II - Selected Papers published by the Research Division of the Rochester Museum & Science Center in 1985.

Shumway identified four different types of these English trade rifles.

English_Pattern_Trade_Rifles_1.jpg


De Witt Baily talks about them in his British Military Flintlock Rifles 1740-1840. He found documents where the British government ordered rifles for Indians during the AWI and during the War of 1812.

James A. Hanson summarizes Shumway's and Baily's research in Firearms of the Fur Trade.

The new book, Rifles of the American Indians by Ryan Gale, et. al. has some excellent pictures of William Grice made rifle (Type C) from the 1780's and 1790's period and pictures of a War of 1812 version made by Ketland & Allport (Type D).

One caution when studying pictures of these English Pattern Trade Rifles, like many Kentucky rifles, most had been converted to percussion during their working life and later re-converted back to flintlock. The re-conversions didn't always get the cocks, pans, and frizzens right.

Notice the Germanic shaped pan on the lock of the NRA rifle.
12481_a_crop.jpg


Compare to the more correctly shaped pan and cock on this Ketland & Co. trade rifle.
ww2304.jpg


This second rifle may be a re-conversion also, but it's more correct for the period and style.

Another interesting aspect of some of these English Pattern Trade Rifles is that some of them have a carving flaw on the lower "C" scroll behind the cheekpiece.

Note the front part of the lower "C" scroll is missing on this Wilson trade rifle Type A.
English_Trade_Rifle_Type_A_copy.jpg


The same carving error was made on this Grice Type C trade rifle.
English_Trade_Rifle_Type_C_copy.jpg


It's obvious that both builders were copying the same pattern rifle.

On the patch box question, the English were trying to copy an American daisy patch box, but like the carving, didn't understand the design all that well. Notice the poor quality of engraving and lack of integration with the patch box design on this Type B rifle.

16_8.jpg


All the known Type B rifles with the daisy patch box were made by Ketland.

Surviving Type A's were made by Wilson and Barnett and surviving Type C's by Grice and Wheeler.

Surviving Type D rifles were made by Wheeler, Sutherland, Sharpe, and Ketland.

While I was composing my message, I see that others have posted comments on some of the same points I make above. Sorry for the repetition.

Phil Meek
 
While I was composing my message, I see that others have posted comments on some of the same points I make above. Sorry for the repetition.

You provided pictures, which are a great help.
 
Phil,

No need to apologize and thank you SO MUCH for the added information and pictures. Fascinating, indeed. :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

Gus
 
Loyalist Dave said:
Interesting that the second closeup photo of the Ketland lock, the frizzen does not have the bridle, while the NRA rifle does have a bridled frizzen.

LD

Since both are probably reconversions from percussion, it was a choice the restorer made.
 
I'd say that the chances are better than average that at least one of those locks has an internal bridle that doesn't reach to the sear screw. :wink:
 
Stophel said:
I'd say that the chances are better than average that at least one of those locks has an internal bridle that doesn't reach to the sear screw. :wink:

Now that is interesting, I don't believe I have ever even heard of an internal bridle where the rear end did not have the sear screw go through it.

Was it anchored by a second screw somewhere else?

Gus
 
Hi Gus,
I think we often forget how important trade with indians was among colonists before the Rev War. For the first 2 decades of gun making by Moravians at Bethlehem and then Christian's Spring the bulk of the work was overwhelmingly supplying and fixing guns for native Americans. Rifles were in great demand by the indians as were smooth bored guns. Eastern indians were very familiar with rifles made in the Lancaster area so it should not be a surprise that the British offered a Lancaster look-a-like to them after the Rev War.

dave
 
Hi Dave,

Indeed and though probably much lesser known, the Moravians at Old Salem (Winston-Salem, NC) also were very heavily involved with the Indian trade and gunsmithing/making some rifles as well, even from their founding in 1766.

One side note I picked up there, was the Moravian Church had fixed prices because they believed making excessive profits was a serious sin. So the Church Leaders actually set prices and was one of the earliest forms of it in the country.

But back to internal bridles that did not stretch back to over the sear screw, have you ever seen or heard of an internal bridle like that? That really piqued my interest as I had never even heard of that before.

Gus
 
This pic shamelessly stolen from the internet... somewhere, I don't recall.

I have seen photos of others like this, but the particular guns don't spring to mind. One might like for this lock to be around 1770's period, but it might not be. This may or may not be something that was completely passe' by the time that the trade rifles were being made, I don't know. English locks are NOT my specialty.

rkPSF2W.jpg
 
Back
Top