Thoughts on Smoothbore Rear "Notches"?

I was talking with someone recently at one of our muzzle loader matches. We have a few smoothbore shooters, but not many. We talked a little bit about filing into the tang/breech top surface a "v-notch" that acts as a sort of landmark for sighting the gun.

Some people consider it a witness mark for breeching/unbreeching the gun. Some people consider it a rear sight? I got differing opinions. Is a filed notch in the tang/breech a rear sight under your clubs/match rules?

Who has added a v-notch slot to the breech and tang area of a smoothbore fowler or musket? How much help is it?

I have rear sights on my smoothies. I don’t know how these were used, but have seen them in photos going back to the sixteenth century.

It depends on where you are shooting. A club can write match rules however they want and usually a good idea to write the rules the way shooters want them. However, NMLRA rules prohibit a v groove in Trade gun/smoothbore matches. Sighted smoothbore is a different animal all together.
Just beware different rules from different clubs. I have seen people come unglued, because someone had a tang screw to high, using it as a rear sight.

Michael

I've had only one smoothbore with a rear sight, it was .54 (28ga) "smooth rifle"

All of my other smoothbores I aline the tang screw and use the "shadow" of the screw's grove to line with the front bead.

I'm not in a club, and don't do matches, so don't care about rules. :wink:

Some people like them, other people have no use for them.

I will say that sighting grooves, and even raised "butterfly" wing sights are VERY commonly seen on 18th century smoothbore guns, so it is definitely not a new phenomenon.

Back in the 1970's at the Primitive Range at Friendship at the NMLRA Spring and Fall National Championships, MANY of the folks shooting smoothbores in the Northwest Trade Gun Aggregate used notches in their tangs/breeches and MOST of the Winners used them. This because as Stophel mentioned, they were used on many 18th century smoothbores as a rear sight.

Now, I haven't followed NMLRA rule changes in recent years and different clubs may or may not allow them in certain matches, but that's where one has to check on what each club allows for the shoots one attends.

Gus

Ray-Vigo said:

Who has added a v-notch slot to the breech and tang area of a smoothbore fowler or musket? How much help is it?

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Without regard for matches (don't do any) I found a useful "half-way" measure for the first days of getting acquainted with a new gun. I just put a tiny dab of epoxy (colored black with a Sharpie) on the back. Once I have my hold dialed in and natural, the "sight" goes away with the flick of a thumbnail cuzz I don't need it any more.

It's a really quick way to dial in your hold on a gun intended to be shot with no rear sight.

Hi,
Pictured below is a typical standing breech used on British guns from the mid-18th century. The sighting groove is elevated above the barrel and helps align your eyes and the front sight for quick shooting. It does work pretty well. It also gives the gun a bit of a "humped" appearance at the breech.




The long file line you see on many originals with flat breeches and tangs are used as a sighting reference. You cannot actually sight down them because after a shot or 2, heat waves in the barrel obscure the view. Plus it would likely mean your front sight would be really low. It was used more as a reference for where your front sight should be in your sight picture as you aimed over the barrel plane rather than down along it. The long grooves were not for aligning the plug because they would not need to be so long or deep for that purpose.

dave

I've shot smoothbores with no rear sight since the mid 90's. It only takes a little practice to get use to using the tang screw or eyeballing the width of the tang for center. Here's what the NMLRA rules say on the subject of primitive shooting a smoothbore:

9050”“SMOOTHBORE
”“A traditional style long gun originally intended to shoot either round ball or shot. The smoothbore must be of 28 ga. (.54 caliber) or larger. No rear sight above the plane of the barrel, no set triggers. Smoothbores that are acceptable in the primitive smoothbore matches include musket, fowler and trade gun.

9060”“SIGHTED SMOOTHBORE (a.k.a. SMOOTH RIFLE)
”“A traditional style long gun with a barrel with no rifling (smooth bored). Smooth rifle may have set triggers and fixed open sights, front and rear. No limitations on bore size or caliber.

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So it's OK as long as there's no notch or "V" above the plane of the barrel.

Rules like that are just made to create a level playing field. Historically light barreled fusils were fit with rear sights, and they were not the same as a smooth rifle with a heavy barrel.
Should you decide to shoot in a computing you have to follow the house rules, if you want to be historical you can do what’s most handy for you.
A rear sight didn’t make my guns shoot better but they made them easier to shoot well for me. However it means I can’t compete in a smooth bore shoot or shoot fairly in a smooth rifle shoot. That’s ok it’s a choice I made.

OK as long as there's no notch or "V" above the plane of the barrel.

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Amen, Bro.
End of discussion.

Keb said:

9050”“SMOOTHBORE
”“A traditional style long gun originally intended to shoot either round ball or shot. The smoothbore must be of 28 ga. (.54 caliber) or larger. No rear sight above the plane of the barrel, no set triggers. Smoothbores that are acceptable in the primitive smoothbore matches include musket, fowler and trade gun.


So it's OK as long as there's no notch or "V" above the plane of the barrel.

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Good find!

That is what made it legal back in the 1970's at Friendship when I shot the Northwest Trade Gun Aggregate there.

Gus

I use the groove in the tang screw also.

Thanks for posting the rule. I have not had to look at that rule in a long time. I remember going to shoots in Northern Calif where guy's wanted to fight over the trade gun rules. Usually because the didn't win a 5 cent medal.

Michael

Thanks for the rule and for everyone's thoughts on this. I have a couple guns where the tang screw lines up nicely as an aid, but on others it's not much of a help. I have a couple guns in particular that might benefit from a notch to help get the alignment better for me. I have to look again at the couple guns I have in mind to see whether I want to do this. But I appreciate what other people have found when trying it. I also appreciate the historical references.

tenngun said:

Rules like that are just made to create a level playing field. Historically light barreled fusils were fit with rear sights, and they were not the same as a smooth rifle with a heavy barrel.
Should you decide to shoot in a computing you have to follow the house rules, if you want to be historical you can do what’s most handy for you.
A rear sight didn’t make my guns shoot better but they made them easier to shoot well for me. However it means I can’t compete in a smooth bore shoot or shoot fairly in a smooth rifle shoot. That’s ok it’s a choice I made.

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Correct. Historically some imported trade guns had a rear sight. The NMLRA made these rules to create a higher level of difficulty for their primitive trade gun matches. I'm guessing the rule was made before it was discovered some Trade guns even had rear sights. The rules I posted were NMLRA rules. Those may not apply at a shoot that isn't held at Friendship or the Western National shoot. Anyone hosting a shoot has the right to make up their own rules and they usually do. However, I've been attending NMLRA / NRLHF rondyvoos quite a while and contrary to the rule book, they have allowed sighted smoothbores in any Trade Gun or Smoothbore match for the past 10 years best as I can remember.
If you're curious about any rule at any future event, ask the host club before going.

Some people consider it a witness mark for breeching/unbreeching the gun

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I've seen lots of muzzle loading barrels on antiques, and lots of lines as breeching reference marks, and ALL were done on the underside where they were not seen when the gun was assembled.

:wink:

LD

I had a rear sight added to my .62 smoothbore and am glad I did. I don't shoot matches, just informal targets and game. I just shoot it like a rifle, even with shot. It's not a "V" just a wider than normal square notch. They can be taken off and put back on depending on those rules.

hanshi said:

I had a rear sight added to my .62 smoothbore and am glad I did. I don't shoot matches, just informal targets and game. I just shoot it like a rifle, even with shot. It's not a "V" just a wider than normal square notch. They can be taken off and put back on depending on those rules.

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Sounds about like my GM smooth 62 caliber drop-in for a TC. For my tastes and habits that rear sight is a stinker for shot, but great for ball. Good thing it comes off....

I’m making a smoothbore patterned after Fainot’s work in Lancaster. I have a rear sight and a blank,,flat dovetail plug so the rear sight can be popped out for matches where a rear sight is prohibited,