Muzzleloading Forum .....


Contact - Can't Login?
 Page 5 of 5 « First<2345
Login Name Post: Shot in a frontier fusil, hmmm        (Topic#307365)
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 7459
tenngun
05-23-18 09:32 AM - Post#1685959    

    In response to Artificer

Some day some mathematician is going to produce a model of how our post evolve and he will win the Nobel prize in mathematics

 
Spence10 
Cannon
Posts: 6843
05-23-18 10:28 AM - Post#1685973    

    In response to Artificer

Tumbled shot was made a bit later than in your chronology.

An Essay on Shooting, Wm. Cleator, 1789:

"The patent milled shot is said to be made in the following manner. Sheets of lead, whose thickness corresponds with the size of the shot required, are cut into square stripes by a machine, and thus again into small pieces that are cubes; or of the form of a die. A great quantity of these little cubes are put into a large hollow iron cylinder, which is mounted horizontally and turned by a winch; when by their friction against one another and against the sides of the cylinder, they are rendered perfectly round and very smooth."

Robert Hooke took a keen interest in the process worked out by Prince Rupert, and did a study of it to report to the Royal Society.

Micrographia, by Robert Hooke, 1665
To make small shot of different sizes; Communicated by his Highness P.R.

"Take Lead out of the Pig what quantity you please, melt it down, stir and clear it with an iron Ladle, gathering together the blackish parts that swim at top like scum, and when you see the colour of the clear Lead to be greenish, but no sooner, strew upon it Auripigmentum powdered according to the quantity of Lead, about as much as will lye upon a half Crown piece will serve for eighteen or twenty pound weight of some sorts of Lead; others will require more, or less. After the Auripigmentum is put in, stir the Lead well, and the Auripigmentum will flame: when the flame is over, take out some of the Lead in a Ladle having a lip or notch in the brim for convenient pouring out of the Lead, and being well warmed amongst the melted Lead, and with a stick make some single drops of Lead trickle out of the Ladle into water in a Glass, which if they fall to be round and without tails, there is Auripigmentum enough put in, and the temper of the heat is right, otherwise put in more. Then lay two bars of Iron (or some more proper Iron-tool made on purpose) upon a Pail of water, and place upon them a round Plate of Copper, of the size and figure of an ordinary large Pewter or Silver Trencher, the hollow whereof is to be about three inches over, the bottom lower then the brims about half an inch, pierced with thirty, forty, or more small holes; the smaller the holes are, the smaller the shot will be; and the brim is to be thicker then the bottom, to conserve the heat the better.

"The bottom of the Trencher being some four inches distant from the water in the Pail, lay upon it some burning Coles, to keep the Lead melted upon it. Then with the hot Ladle take Lead off the Pot where it stands melted, and pour it softly upon the burning Coles over the bottom of the Trencher, and it will immediately run through the holes into the water in small round drops. Thus pour on new Lead still as fast as it runs through the Trencher till all be done; blowing now and then the Coles with hand-Bellows, when the Lead in the Trencher cools so as to stop from running.

"While one pours on the Lead, another must, with another Ladle, thrusted four or five inches under water in the Pail, catch from time to time some of the shot, as it drops down, to see the size of it, and whether there be any faults in it. The greatest care is to keep the Lead upon the Trencher in the right degree of heat; if it be too cool, it will not run through the Trencher, though it stand melted upon it; and this is to be helped by blowing the Coals a little, or pouring on new Lead that is hotter: but the cooler the Lead, the larger the Shot; and the hotter, the smaller; when it it too hot, the drops will crack and fly; then you must stop pouring on new Lead, and let it cool; and so long as you observe the right temper of the heat, the Lead will constantly drop into very round Shot, without so much as one with a tail in many pounds.

"When all is done, take your Shot out of the Pail of water, and put it in a Frying-pan over the fire to dry them, which must be done warily, still shaking them that they melt not; and when they are dry you may separate the small from the great, in Pearl Sives made of Copper or Lattin let into one another, into as many sizes at you please. But if you would have your Shot larger then the Trencher makes them, you may do it with a Stick, making them trickle out of the Ladle, as hath been said.
If the Trencher be but toucht a very little when the Lead stops from going through it, and be not too cool, it will drop again, but it better not to touch it at all. At the melting of the Lead take care that there be no kind of Oyl, Grease, or the like, upon the Pots, or Ladles, or Trencher.

"The Chief cause of this Globular Figure of the Shot, seems to be the Auripigmentum; for, as soon as it is put in among the melted Lead, it loses its shining brightness, contracting instantly a grayish film or skin upon it, when you scum it to make it clean with the Ladle. So that when the Air comes at the falling drop of the melted Lead, that skin constricts them every where equally: but upon what account, and whether this be the true cause, is left to further disquisition."

You will notice that the object was to avoid tailed shot, and the process was considered to have been done well if it was "without so much as one with a tail in many pounds".

Spence



 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 7459
tenngun
05-23-18 10:54 AM - Post#1685974    

    In response to Spence10

Well even though they were shooting ‘cylinder bores’ they had to have seen they the more round the better the pattern. And that takes us back to the original pard of this posting.
Shot was sent on to the frontier and it seems shot was being made in the trans frontier areas. And used for low production hunting.
One thing that might pick up one ears is the idea of market hunting in the trans frontier. Providing traverns and public houses with small game.
I don’t know if Boone or the Grist brothers ever bought shot, but it was sure available to them.

 
Spence10 
Cannon
Posts: 6843
05-23-18 10:54 AM - Post#1685975    

    In response to Spence10

Rupert shot is identifiable in archeological digs today by its shape, which is slightly ovoid with a little dimple on one side.

Rupert shot was also called "drop shot" in the day, apparently, and there are many ads for it in the newspapers.

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
November 16, 1734
Lately Imported in the Mary Ann,...drop shot, bullets, Carolina guns, gun-powder....

The Pennsylvania Gazette
July 12, 1739
JUST IMPORTED,....Dutch Gun Flints, drop Shot, mould ditto, and bar Lead, (Fly ye Plovers!) Gun Powder glazed and unglazed in twelve Pound Caggs,

The Pennsylvania Gazette
July 2, 1752
Just imported in the Sampson, and other ships, and to be sold cheap, … steel, bar lead, mould and drop shot, cannon powder, F and FF ditto, ship muskets and long buccaneers...

Spence



 
Artificer 
Cannon
Posts: 7285
05-23-18 11:04 AM - Post#1685977    

    In response to Spence10

"Tumbled shot was made a bit later than in your chronology."

First of all, it is not my chronology, but from Hamilton.

Second, I read it three times and I missed the date that Cleator or someone else dated tumbled shot?

Not trying to be nitpicky, just trying to make things clear.

OK, there is early documentation on the use of the term tail/s with shot. Great.

Gus

 
Spence10 
Cannon
Posts: 6843
05-23-18 11:56 AM - Post#1685988    

    In response to Spence10

I have only one time run across a usage for 'swan' in the early literature which made me wonder if tailed shot were being mentioned under that name, in the book by John Palliser describing events in Arkansas in the 1840s, written in 1847, published 1853, _Solitary Rambles and Adventures of a Hunter in the Prairies_,

Back story...he was setting a 'spring gun', an old Bess musket tied to a tree, pointed at a deer trail, with a line fastened as a trip wire to ambush deer. He had earlier said:

"...as my own saddle-bags contained some biscuits and salt, besides powder and shot, and, by great good luck, some swan-drops, and I had a tin mug fastened to the pummel of my saddle, I considered myself pretty well fixed off for the night.”

They set the gun:

"...we placed it further towards the wood, having loaded it with five drachms of powder, a ball, and twenty buckshot.”

It worked.

“The old flint musket had done its duty well, and planted bullet and swan-drops just in the mortal place behind the shoulder.“

So, he was using the terms 'swan-drops' and buckshot interchangeably and wasn't describing tailed shot at all. His 'swan-drops' were molded swan shot.

Spence



 
Spence10 
Cannon
Posts: 6843
05-23-18 12:03 PM - Post#1685990    

    In response to Artificer

  • Artificer Said:
Second, I read it three times and I missed the date that Cleator or someone else dated tumbled shot?

Not trying to be nitpicky, just trying to make things clear.


He said in 1789, "...patent milled shot is said to be made in the following manner...", not "to have been made". Seems clear enough to me.

Nitpicky is good if it catches mistakes.

Spence


 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 14286
Colorado Clyde
05-23-18 12:33 PM - Post#1685996    

    In response to Spence10

  • Spence10 Said:
"The Chief cause of this Globular Figure of the Shot, seems to be the Auripigmentum;

Spence





Hah!....So it is the arsenic.....


 
Spence10 
Cannon
Posts: 6843
05-23-18 12:40 PM - Post#1686000    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

Hooke was a keen, thoughtful observer. His description of the reason the droplets rounded into spheres in free fall, the analogy of a contracting skin...."that skin constricts them every where equally".... is an excellent one for surface tension, long before it was understood.

Spence

 
Artificer 
Cannon
Posts: 7285
05-23-18 12:53 PM - Post#1686004    

    In response to Spence10

  • Spence10 Said:
  • Artificer Said:
Second, I read it three times and I missed the date that Cleator or someone else dated tumbled shot?

Not trying to be nitpicky, just trying to make things clear.


He said in 1789, "...patent milled shot is said to be made in the following manner...", not "to have been made". Seems clear enough to me.

Nitpicky is good if it catches mistakes.

Spence




OK, I get it now. You meant the use of tumbled shot went further forward in time than what Hamilton mentioned.

He did mention earlier types of shot were used later and the dates he gave were a timeline of the use of shot, rather than the last time each type of shot was used.

However, it is interesting Cleator mentioned tumbled shot long after Rupert Shot had come on the scene in 1665. Does Cleator mention Rupert Shot or dimpled shot as well?

Gus

 
Spence10 
Cannon
Posts: 6843
05-23-18 01:10 PM - Post#1686008    

    In response to Artificer

I was agreeing with you, Gus. You said, "The author then goes on to explain there were overlaps of how shot was made in the dates, but generally that is the historic timeline", I was giving you one example of that happening.

Spence

 
Artificer 
Cannon
Posts: 7285
05-23-18 02:02 PM - Post#1686021    

    In response to Spence10

Thank you, I had that mixed up in my mind a bit.

Gus

 
Elnathan 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1172
05-23-18 05:48 PM - Post#1686059    

    In response to Spence10

  • Spence10 Said:


So, he was using the terms 'swan-drops' and buckshot interchangeably and wasn't describing tailed shot at all. His 'swan-drops' were molded swan shot.





If I may play the Devil's advocate for a moment, couldn't that passage to taken to mean exactly the opposite, that the pellets in question were buckshot in size and "swan-drops" in shape? If according to Baker's table of shot sizes you posted on the first page of this thread, buckshot and swanshot were two different sizes of shot, then it would be very odd for him to be describing the same shot as being of two different sizes.

Given that he might just have been using his terms loosely, I sure wouldn't want to hang a thesis on it, but I think it should go into the "possible" category for use of the term "swan shot" to mean tailed shot prior to the modern revival era.

 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 14286
Colorado Clyde
05-23-18 07:14 PM - Post#1686085    

    In response to Elnathan

  • Spence10 Said:


So, he was using the terms 'swan-drops' and buckshot interchangeably and wasn't describing tailed shot at all. His 'swan-drops' were molded swan shot.






Perhaps.....If I recall correctly, Gang molds of the era often contained two or more different sizes of shot.
Perhaps this is what was being described....Two different sizes dropped from the same mold.

Not using the terms interchangeably, but in concert.


 
 Page 5 of 5 « First<2345
Icon Legend Permissions Topic Options
Print Topic


1224 Views
Welcome Guest...
Enter your Login Name and password to login. If you do not have a username you can register one here

Login Name

Password

Remember me. Help



Login Not Working?...

Registered Members
Total: 31971
Todays
Birthdays
6-20joebiker
Current Quote
"Never on any forum I have ever been a member of, have the fellow members and admins been so friendly, helpful and generous especially to a newcomer."
~ Forum Member

PRIVACY POLICY
FusionBB™ Version 3.0 FINAL | ©2003-2010 InteractivePHP, Inc.
Execution time: 0.079 seconds.   Total Queries: 60  
All times are (GMT-5). Current time is 03:40 AM
Top