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Login Name Post: Patched round balls or conicals for big game?        (Topic#307141)
marmotslayer 
70 Cal.
Posts: 4562
04-15-18 03:08 PM - Post#1679805    

    In response to dsayer

Myself and those I hunt with have found a PRB in a .54 to be very effective on elk. 80 to 120 grains of powder with .80 being perfectly adequate.

So, IMO, you don't need a conical unless you are shooting a .50. the new regs require such.

If you decide to go with the REAL bullets, be sure test accuracy out to the range you might hunt at. When I tried them in both a .50 & .54 TC Hawken they shot overlapping holes at 50 yards and 12 to 14 Inc groups at 100.

Good luck with the draw.

 
dsayer 
40 Cal.
Posts: 328
04-15-18 08:36 PM - Post#1679865    

    In response to Skychief

  • Skychief Said:
I thought everybody knew that roundballs are worthless for hunting anything bigger than a gopher.

Poor ballistic coefficients causing rapid deceleration and rainbow trajectories, not to mention, they have no forward nor aft. It's just not right. Unnatural.

Then, there's all that fooling around with patch material and messy lubes. Will the patch hold together? Will the lube freeze to my bore. Really more fuss than a man should have to face.

Penetration? They're know to bounce off ribs at any distance.

Accuracy? We all know they pale In comparison to elongated bullets. If not, they'd be loading them in factory fresh brass loads. Right?

If a guy has only roundballs to hunt with, may as well stay home not chance being caught using them. Worse yet is the near guarantee of a cripple.

Best regards, Skychief.

PS, all of the above was written tongue in cheek and its the opinion of the author that it's all...........



Hahaha! Thanks Skychief's. I'll take your opinions into consideration.

 
dsayer 
40 Cal.
Posts: 328
04-15-18 08:39 PM - Post#1679868    

    In response to tenngun

  • tenngun Said:
I don’t think that guy is coming with bad info, but instead lack of experience. It’s hard to get a ml to preform as well as a 30-30, on paper. And a 30 -30 would be a poor elk gun. Ball or conical no ml can be used like a modren hunting rifle.
You can’t take shots with an ml that would be easy kills for a .300 mag.
So the guy is kinda right. A ball shooting ml in the hands of an inexperienced ml shooter would be unethical. Same for archery tackle. An arrow is unethical if the shooter is misusing it.
Lots of elk went down to 30-30s .... in the hands of experienced shooters
Lead balls don’t kill animals, hunters kill animals. Would that fit in a bumper sticker?



Lots of truth here. The guy didn't know me and probably doesn't have much (or any) experience with traditional muzzleloaders.


 
dsayer 
40 Cal.
Posts: 328
04-15-18 08:49 PM - Post#1679870    

    In response to Nebraska boy 71

  • Nebraska boy 71 Said:
I have shot somewhere in the neighborhood of a dozen deer with patched round balls using 45, 50, and 54 calibers. I agree with the other posts in that the pbr is quite effective and on a double lung shot I almost always get complete pass throughs. The longest shot I,ve ever taken with a pbr was 78 yrds on a mature white tail doe.That was with a 45 cal 80 grains of 3fff and it too was a complete passthrough. I don't think I,ve ever had a deer go more than 50 yrds after being shot with a pbr, however and this is the point of my reply... I often times have very little to no blood trail. This hasn't been a big problem as I stated they never go too far but it always bothers me a bit because what if I made a marginal shot, how would I track it? Ive been told I should shoot a bit lower on the body so when the chest cavity fills up it will pour out. I don't take high back shots but rather aim for the middle right behind the shoulder. What do you guys say about it? Have you fellas had similar experience with the pbr. By the way, I do feel like my 54 with a 90 grain charge of 2ff is the most effective at dropping them quick.


I've only had to worry about blood trails a handful of times on deer. Usually DRT very or at least within sight. Usually the blood trail has been at least sufficient and I can only think of a couple times where I had much issue.

I usually aim right behind the shoulder, a little lower than the midpoint of the body.


 
Blizzard of 93 
Cannon
Posts: 7237
04-15-18 09:07 PM - Post#1679873    

    In response to dsayer

it's been years back I went with a group of fellows that hunted bear with dogs, oft time going at night. 2 of the ol' timers had muzzlers, one a sxs 12 ga the other a .50 capper. others had modern cartridge guns - I carried my ROA loaded with max charge 3f and conical cast slug. never ran one to tree or bay, but heck of an experience dogs chasing around us.

 
Stumpkiller 
Moderator
Posts: 17550
Stumpkiller
04-16-18 03:16 PM - Post#1679973    

    In response to Blizzard of 93

If you need more than a round ball . . . shoot a bigger round ball.

The Eastern Elk was hunted to extinction before conicals. They came into "common" use among hunters right around and after the Civil War.
"Don't take life too serious - it ain't nohow permanent."


 
Ames 
45 Cal.
Posts: 793
Ames
04-16-18 09:09 PM - Post#1680024    

    In response to Nebraska boy 71

Last 3 of 4 years my 50 cal with 80 grains and a prb dropped them where they stood.

 
Loyalist Dave 
Cannon
Posts: 6847
Loyalist Dave
04-16-18 10:04 PM - Post#1680033    

    In response to dsayer

FYI James Forsyth hunted Tiger and Rhino with patched round ball in the 1860's even though he could easily have used one of several types of conical projectiles, minie balls, whitworth shot, and others.

Now he preferred 8-bore (.85 caliber) and 4-bore (120 caliber ..., ok that's correctly 1.20) in rifles, so they were pretty large, patched round balls, but that's what he advocated using, AND at ranges of 100 yards or less.

LD

 
flehto 
Cannon
Posts: 7862
04-17-18 01:35 AM - Post#1680049    

    In response to dsayer

Have hunted elk w/ a .50 cal. TC Hawken using 410 gr Buffalo Bullets and a .54 cal, custom Hawken using a PRB and both have killed elk.

The conical in the .50 TC Hawken was used because I don't think a .50 PRB is sufficient in all cases to kill an elk. The 410 gr conical performed well on elk w/ the following 2 factors that require caution. Have had the conical come off the powder charge in a clean bbl while hunting and the mid range trajectory of the 410 gr conical is excessive.....limiting the zero distance to 60 yds which to me is too short.

Went to the .54 PRB because of the drawbacks w/ the .50 conical and the last elk shot w/ a .535 RB w/ 120 grs 3f was hit at 107 paced off yds and ran 40 yds to me and collapsed. The rifle's zero was at 100 yds. I'm aware that a lesser amount of powder will kill an elk......I'm after a flatter trajectory.

Both the .50 conicals and .54 PRBs have killed elk w/o a whole lot of tracking, but the .54 PRB is more versatile.....and I don't have to keep checking if the conical stays on the powder.....Fred



 
BrownBear 
Cannon
Posts: 14314
BrownBear
04-17-18 04:05 AM - Post#1680052    

    In response to Loyalist Dave

  • Loyalist Dave Said:

Now he preferred 8-bore (.85 caliber) and 4-bore (120 caliber ..., ok that's correctly 1.20) in rifles, so they were pretty large, patched round balls, but that's what he advocated using, AND at ranges of 100 yards or less.




As I recall he was using hard alloy balls in them as well.
"Lay in the weeds and wait, and when you get your chance to say something, say something good."
Merle Haggard


 
dsayer 
40 Cal.
Posts: 328
04-17-18 10:42 AM - Post#1680099    

    In response to Loyalist Dave

  • Loyalist Dave Said:
Now he preferred 8-bore (.85 caliber) and 4-bore (120 caliber ..., ok that's correctly 1.20) in rifles, so they were pretty large, patched round balls, but that's what he advocated using, AND at ranges of 100 yards or less.

LD



Yeah I think that qualifies as pretty large...

 
dsayer 
40 Cal.
Posts: 328
04-17-18 10:44 AM - Post#1680100    

    In response to flehto

  • flehto Said:
Have hunted elk w/ a .50 cal. TC Hawken using 410 gr Buffalo Bullets and a .54 cal, custom Hawken using a PRB and both have killed elk.

The conical in the .50 TC Hawken was used because I don't think a .50 PRB is sufficient in all cases to kill an elk. The 410 gr conical performed well on elk w/ the following 2 factors that require caution. Have had the conical come off the powder charge in a clean bbl while hunting and the mid range trajectory of the 410 gr conical is excessive.....limiting the zero distance to 60 yds which to me is too short.

Went to the .54 PRB because of the drawbacks w/ the .50 conical and the last elk shot w/ a .535 RB w/ 120 grs 3f was hit at 107 paced off yds and ran 40 yds to me and collapsed. The rifle's zero was at 100 yds. I'm aware that a lesser amount of powder will kill an elk......I'm after a flatter trajectory.

Both the .50 conicals and .54 PRBs have killed elk w/o a whole lot of tracking, but the .54 PRB is more versatile.....and I don't have to keep checking if the conical stays on the powder.....Fred





Thanks! 120gr of 3F must be quite a whallop...


 
Jimbo47 
40 Cal.
Posts: 194
04-17-18 11:03 AM - Post#1680104    

    In response to dsayer




Thanks! 120gr of 3F must be quite a whallop...




That's behind a PRB, and just think what it would be like behind a 410 grain conical!


 
dsayer 
40 Cal.
Posts: 328
04-17-18 11:10 AM - Post#1680108    

    In response to Jimbo47

  • Jimbo47 Said:

Thanks! 120gr of 3F must be quite a whallop...


That's behind a PRB, and just think what it would be like behind a 410 grain conical!




No thanks...
I've been toying with 100gr of 2F with both 380gr REALs and 430gr Maxi Balls and that's plenty.

 
Jimbo47 
40 Cal.
Posts: 194
04-17-18 11:17 AM - Post#1680109    

    In response to dsayer

I tried 100 grains ONCE!
85 grains is now my max.

 
jrmflintlock 
45 Cal.
Posts: 747
jrmflintlock
04-17-18 11:40 AM - Post#1680115    

    In response to dsayer

I have posted these pictures many times but the proof is in the victuals!!

A fellow by the Name of GreenMtnboy as put down every type of critter in Colorado with a patched lead ball! The key is distance and shot placement. Stay inside 100 yards and the lead ball will be good medicine. If as others have said you do your part and poke them in the right spot the ball will do its job!

Cow elk taken with a beautified Bobcat in .50 cal with a patched lead round ball and I believe 70 or 80 grains of FFg. fell over dead within site of my nephew!



This a one of the bulls I shot with my flintlock Jaeger in .54 with a patched lead round ball using 80 grains of FFFG. This bad boy dropped like as sack o' taters!



The gent who told you lead balls were no good was probably the guy who made the regulation change in Colorado requiring .50 cal to use a conical. Unfounded in my opinion. My hunting partners and I have harvested more elk with unexpanded copper jacketed .308 and .270 bullets, because they shoot them at 500 yards, "cause they can". In fact I have never shot a critter that had been "wounded" by a lead ball. All the critters I have shot with the lead ball have become Dead critters!

My two cents, worth what you paid for them!

Good Luck this fall, maybe we will cross paths! If you see a guy with a flintlock in buckskins it might be me if'n I can draw a tag!

 
jrmflintlock 
45 Cal.
Posts: 747
jrmflintlock
04-17-18 12:02 PM - Post#1680120    

    In response to jrmflintlock

Here is a picture of the .50 cal ball recovered from that cow next to a unfired ball. Patched led ball is good medicine to make meat!


 
dsayer 
40 Cal.
Posts: 328
04-17-18 04:27 PM - Post#1680173    

    In response to jrmflintlock

Nice pics! Thanks.
Which unit did you apply for?

 
hanshi 
Cannon
Posts: 8463
04-17-18 04:48 PM - Post#1680178    

    In response to Stumpkiller

  • Stumpkiller Said:
If you need more than a round ball . . . shoot a bigger round ball.
The Eastern Elk was hunted to extinction before conicals. They came into "common" use among hunters right around and after the Civil War.





...and that's the truth. I've only killed 2 deer at 100 yards or a bit over; I was hunkered in a huge hay field behind some bales. Two different flintlocks but both were .50. Hits were through and through with signs of only slight expansion. One ran maybe 30 yards and the other maybe 15 yards.

The average, though, is much closer; I'd guess under 30 yards. The distances ranged from the previously mentioned 100 yds to about 7 feet. Up to at least 50 yds expansion was always impressive.






 
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