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Tips for dovetail a swapped barrel

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flintlock719

Pilgrim
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Hello. I am thinking of getting a early Lancaster kit but I am a little concerned about putting a dovetail in a swapped barrel especially in the waist. I am a woodworker and I builted 100's of box's with dovetails but never did one in metal. Would the waist of the barrel be to skinny to put a dovetail in? Any tips of suggestions will be appreciated! Thanks!
 
Measure it yourself. I ruined a Colerain swamped barrel by cutting a dovetail in the waist, the same depth as others,
If you're concerned, solder that one on.
 
not to sound like an attorney, but the answer is "it depends." I've built a few slim- waisted rifles, and out of an abundance of caution, I solder the middle barrel lugs on with silver solder.

I don't know if this is 'historically correct' or not (probably isn't) ... but then again, I've never had that horrid feeling you would have to get when you realize that you've just trashed an expensive barrel.

one guy's advice: free and no doubt well worth the cost...
 
MSW said:
not to sound like an attorney, but the answer is "it depends." I've built a few slim- waisted rifles, and out of an abundance of caution, I solder the middle barrel lugs on with silver solder.

I don't know if this is 'historically correct' or not (probably isn't) ... but then again, I've never had that horrid feeling you would have to get when you realize that you've just trashed an expensive barrel.

one guy's advice: free and no doubt well worth the cost...


Good advise. And soldering is much easier to do than dovetailing. Not 'hc'? Who cares? And, who is going to see it? Non-issue. :2
 
Old guns have REALLY SHALLOW dovetails. With the dovetails on the barrel usually raised up with a cold chisel. Of course, I have seen the tenons pulled completely out of the barrel, because the really thin tenon bases and dovetails aren't exactly super strong... but these guns are 200-300 years old too. I don't make mine quite that thin.

The store-bought tenons will have VERY thick bases, that should be thinned considerably, as you can make a plenty strong enough dovetail without making it an eighth inch deep, but you don't have to go paper thin, like on many old guns. Still, I usually cheat on the middle ones, and just solder them on! :haha: I also solder the dovetailed ones in place...them suckers ain't comin' out!
 
Welcome to the Forum!!

Over the years I have been amazed at how they used dovetails for lugs on Original Brown Bess Barrels and that included the Front Sight, that was also the bayonet lug. BB barrels were much "thinner" walled than rifle barrels and even the rounded part near the middle of a barrel like you have.

Even though I am a traditionalist and try to be as authentic as possible, I would not try to dovetail for a lug under the thin rounded part of your rifle barrel, either.

Gus
 
You didn't say what profile and caliber your swamped barrel is and that makes a difference.
For example, an "A" profile 50 caliber barrel, I would not cut a dovetail as the barrel walls are too thin. This one I'd solder on.
A "B" profile 50 caliber, I would cut all three dovetails but the waist one would be very shallow.
The smaller the profile and the larger the caliber the thinner that waist is going to be.
 
Hi,
If your kit is truly an "early" Lancaster, the barrel should be fairly large and dove tails for lugs not a problem. Regardless, dove tails do not need to be deep. Mine are typically less than 1/16" deep usually closer to 3/64". For tools, all you need is a hack saw, a small flat file the width of which is narrower than the length of the dove tail slot (usually about 5/16-3/8"), and a small triangular file to cut the dovetails into the edges of the slot. It is best to grind the teeth off one flat of the triangular file so you can cut into the edge of the slot without filing the edge deeper as well.

dave
 
On the bbls used for early Lancasters {"C" weight}, I dovetail all the bbl lugs. The dovetail depth is .035 deep amd the brass used for the actual bbl lug is .040 thick and is filed down.

On the Bucks County LRs, using a "B" weight bbl that's 46" lg. I solder the bbl lug located at the waist. The web of the stock is the thickest there so the addt'l thickness of the bbl lug base {.035} fits in OK......Fred
 
Darkhorse, sorry I did not put the caliber or barrel profile in the question but I am not really sure what I want. I am thinking of getting a 50 cal with "c" profile just because I got 2 other 50 cal and I don't have to but another mold for bullets. But I might get a smaller cal like Daniel Boone (he is my 7 great uncle). I try to get every detail I can get before I purchased a kit. Thank you for your input!
 
For everyone, thanks for your tips and ideas. I feel a little more comfortable of buying a kit. Thanks!

Flintlock719
 
Hi,
If you are going to buy a Lanacaster style kit I recommend taking a look at Jim Kibler's new colonial rifle kit (www.jimkibler.net). Visit his website and click on his blog for information. He has not posted the gun yet among his other kit offering. This will be hands down the finest kit gun of its type you will ever find.

dave
 
For what it is worth, I put a lug into a piece of scrap Green Mountain barrel with dovetail approximately 1/32" deep, maybe a bit less, and then tried to see if I could get it to pull out.

I couldn't pull it out, even by clamping the lug in a vice bolted to the old, very heavy desk that served as a workbench, grabbing the barrel with both hands, and pulling straight up with all my strength.

I've come to the conclusion that 1/32" is sufficient for anything that the gun should reasonably be expected to withstand. On a Green Mountain or a Rayl, which are made of harder steel than most barrels, I suspect that you could get away with .020."
 
I've not cut dove tails in swamped barrels but have cut many of them in modern barrel steel muzzle loading and cartridge. If the barrel is made of 1134 steel and you can get .090-.100 under the bottom of the cut to the bore than the safety margin at mid barrel should be more than adequately strong.
12L14 is another story and I don't really trust it for any shock loading hoop stress pressure all though it machines wonderfully and is the main reason it is used so much for muzzle loading barrels.
I have read that the big difference is wither or not 12L14 is hot or cold rolled but the shock load numbers I have seen on the alloy are not good compared to 1134. It simply is not barrel quality steel and any reputable metallurgist well tell you that.
For a comparison most .22 caliber cartridge barrels are made of either 1114 or 1117 and will stand pressure in the 30 K range which is over twice what most muzzle loaders produce.
The low pressure of Black powder allows it's marginally safe use but it is not the best choice for shock load stress.
That is the reason I will only use Green mountain barrels for Black powder muzzle loading arms now and in the future.
 
With a "C" weight barrel in .50 caliber I don't see a problem with cutting a dovetail in the waist.
Just be sure you don't go really deep with it, just the minimum needed and you should be alright.
 
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Well, the way I see it is why buy Chinese five star bolts when you can get American five star steel for the same price or a bit more and know it is rated and recommended for the job requirement application by those who get degrees in metallurgy to know about.
You want to buy gun barrels that are made of non recommended low impact (hoop stress) strength steel, it's OK by me.
It is less likely to have seams and incursions than forged iron or early steel barrels did and at black powder pressure will probably be fine but I prefer what metallurgists and major barrel companies recommend.
 

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