Muzzleloading Forum .....


Contact - Can't Login?
Login Name Post: How they still do it -- in Siberia        (Topic#307026)
BillinOregon 
Cannon
Posts: 6465
03-30-18 09:13 AM - Post#1677233    


Not much has changed in this lifeway for centuries, if not millennia. It's hard. Got reindeer?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=T-YDuhXd...

 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 14540
Rifleman1776
03-30-18 02:32 PM - Post#1677267    

    In response to BillinOregon

Interesting.
Loved seeing the snow machines in the background. And, loved that the women were doing all the hard work. Just the way it should be.
(for the record: my wife doesn't read this forum)

 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 14577
Colorado Clyde
03-30-18 03:19 PM - Post#1677278    

    In response to BillinOregon

They look like Nenets Samoyeds Native indigenous Siberians....Similar to what we might call Ekimos or Inuits....They are nomadic reindeer herders.

Sad story, they have suffered the same fate as most indigenous peoples.


 
BillinOregon 
Cannon
Posts: 6465
03-31-18 04:21 PM - Post#1677452    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

Clyde, I am guessing they are very closely related to the Saami fo Finland.

 
Loyalist Dave 
Cannon
Posts: 6761
Loyalist Dave
04-01-18 07:21 AM - Post#1677552    

    In response to Rifleman1776

I like that they don't seem to have any gear (other than the shelter and the sleigh) that is specialized. They just use what they found works. I doubt they have had access to any of the specialty products made for "camping".

LD

 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 14577
Colorado Clyde
04-01-18 09:17 AM - Post#1677562    

    In response to Loyalist Dave

They managed to buy goods somewhere.....I see shovels, water/milk cans (stainless steel) lot's of cloth fabric, a chainsaw, dimensional lumber, wood screws, Rubber pack boots, cheap plastic kids toys, Metal buckets, wool blankets, army surplus anorak, etc...etc....
There must be a Home Depot nearby somewhere....


 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 14540
Rifleman1776
04-01-18 02:12 PM - Post#1677613    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

  • Colorado Clyde Said:
They managed to buy goods somewhere.....I see shovels, water/milk cans (stainless steel) lot's of cloth fabric, a chainsaw, dimensional lumber, wood screws, Rubber pack boots, cheap plastic kids toys, Metal buckets, wool blankets, army surplus anorak, etc...etc....
There must be a Home Depot nearby somewhere....



Exactly. There has to be a lot of choice in that lifestyle.


 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 14577
Colorado Clyde
04-01-18 02:59 PM - Post#1677623    

    In response to Rifleman1776

  • Rifleman1776 Said:


Exactly. There has to be a lot of choice in that lifestyle.




Choice?....

How?

That style of life would offer little choice or freedom.


 
Loyalist Dave 
Cannon
Posts: 6761
Loyalist Dave
04-02-18 08:34 AM - Post#1677724    

    In response to Rifleman1776

  • Quote:
  • Quote:
Colorado Clyde Said:
They managed to buy goods somewhere.....I see shovels, water/milk cans (stainless steel) lot's of cloth fabric, a chainsaw, dimensional lumber, wood screws, Rubber pack boots, cheap plastic kids toys, Metal buckets, wool blankets, army surplus anorak, etc...etc....
There must be a Home Depot nearby somewhere....



Exactly. There has to be a lot of choice in that lifestyle.



No..., I wasn't sufficiently specific,..., my error ...., my point is while they have access to something like a general store, they don't seem to have access to an REI or Hudson Trail, and it doesn't seem to hamper them. Sorta the same situation leading up to the turn of the 20th century when camping became a "fad" here in the USA..., folks had to find what would work from stuff normally found in a kitchen, etc. Their tables, for example, looks like a "coffee table" with a drawer in it...low for them because they sit on the ground...but no folding legs..., no hinge in the center to fold it in half for easier use (or ease of packing in the back of the Subaru)

That's one of the objections some folks have to buying something like the copper, domed, "corn boiler" for use when trekking. The hunters of the day simply used a small pot, maybe with a lid, maybe not..., maybe even an average sized pot, nothing custom made in most cases, IF they had some sort of cooking gear on the trail, at all.

LD

 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 14540
Rifleman1776
04-02-18 12:10 PM - Post#1677754    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

  • Quote:
How?



I dunno.
Maybe go to the town where they buy all that stuff and look for a job.

 
Native Arizonan 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1512
04-02-18 01:10 PM - Post#1677764    

    In response to BillinOregon

  • BillinOregon Said:
Not much has changed in this lifeway for centuries, if not millennia. It's hard. Got reindeer?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=T-YDuhXd...



It is interesting how many parallels to Plains Indian culture you can see in that video. Trade out the reindeer and sleds for horses and travois, and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference. The Siberian "tipis" in the video have more layers of hair-on hides to help insulate from the cold, but other than that they are the same tent. That is amazing given the distance, in whatever way you want to measure it, between the two cultures.

Supposedly the Plains Indians last influx from Siberia would have been over 10,000 years ago, which is a long time for a technology to remain stagnant, and stagnant on both continents in differing climatic conditions at that. I guess the very distance forces the question of whether the Ice Age travelers across Beringia brought tipi tech with them, or whether it was more recently developed independently in both places?

 
Loyalist Dave 
Cannon
Posts: 6761
Loyalist Dave
04-03-18 07:45 AM - Post#1677910    

    In response to Native Arizonan

It's very much a situation of similar needs and similar resources developing similar results. Same as Cherokee blow guns and South American blow guns, and Asian blow guns.

The Plains Indian "horse culture" is not 10,000 years old. It is less than a millennia old. Horses in North America spread North from areas of Spanish contact and Spanish importation. It is a mid 16th century adaptation, upgrading the previous method which was the use of dogs and travois.

All Indians in North America were afoot until the arrival of horses (save those with snow and dog sleds). The Western Nations, with their dogs pulling small loads (compared to a horse or two), their shelters were a lot smaller than the lodges we traditionally think of when talking about the Plains Indians.

LD

 
Native Arizonan 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1512
04-04-18 01:26 PM - Post#1678114    

    In response to Loyalist Dave

The Lodges were reported by the earliest Spaniards as being conical, and sound very much like just smaller tipis.

I agree with the "similar resources developing similar results". It is also interesting how much like the Pueblo style housing, the ancient ruins in Anatolia are, Catalhoyuk, for instance, flourished 9,000 years ago, but the similarities to typical New World pueblo construction is more than a little bit obvious. The rooms all shared walls and entry was from the roof. The floor/ceiling was constructed the same, and all the basic building materials were similar. Cities in areas without stone were built of mud bricks and cities in stony areas were built with stone and plaster.

Then, of course, you also have the step-pyramids in Asia that look so much like those in Meso-America.

There I go, off on a tangent again.

 
Loyalist Dave 
Cannon
Posts: 6761
Loyalist Dave
04-05-18 06:23 AM - Post#1678224    

    In response to Native Arizonan

  • Quote:
The Lodges were reported by the earliest Spaniards as being conical, and sound very much like just smaller tipis.



Yes I'm sure they were. It's interesting to note that while the Siberians and the Finns have domesticated the reindeer..., they are also are available in North America, yet no domestication occurred by paleo-peoples.

LD

 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 14577
Colorado Clyde
04-05-18 08:31 AM - Post#1678243    

    In response to Loyalist Dave

  • Loyalist Dave Said:


It's interesting to note that while the Siberians and the Finns have domesticated the reindeer..., they are also are available in North America, yet no domestication occurred by paleo-peoples.

LD



They might have, if they would have had another 1000 years or so before European contact.
The act of migrating to north America slowed their development. Meanwhile Eurasians refined their hunting techniques into herding and domestication.

Some scholars have argued that reindeer were kept as domestic herds by hunter-gatherers beginning the late Pleistocene, a recent study of reindeer bones dated from 130,000 to 10,000 years ago showed no morphological changes in reindeer skeletal material at all over that period. Genetic changes measured in Finnmark, Norway, were recently documented for 14 reindeer samples, consisting of faunal assemblages from archaeological sites dated between 3400 B.C.E. to C.E. 1800. A distinct haplotype shift was identified in the late medieval period, ca. 1500-1800 C.E., which is interpreted as evidence of a shift to reindeer pastoralism.

But the pivotal issue is the pulling of sleds by reindeer. While sleds date back 8000 years ago, the use of reindeer to pull sleds goes back only about 3000 years at best..

Interestingly, the Innu and the Cree nations of Canada developed a sled in the form of the toboggan. These sleds were used to transport people and cargo across the snow using dogs as draft animals.

We should also note that Reindeer are classified as "Semi-domesticated"


 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 14577
Colorado Clyde
04-05-18 08:57 AM - Post#1678244    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

As a side-note, The Moose has also been semi-domesticated as a draft animal on both continents. The date of domestication is unknown, but it was done in in the 19th century.



 
Native Arizonan 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1512
04-05-18 05:18 PM - Post#1678329    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

  • Colorado Clyde Said:
As a side-note, The Moose has also been semi-domesticated as a draft animal on both continents. The date of domestication is unknown, but it was done in in the 19th century.





That may be a case of training a very small number of wild animals. Really interesting, but maybe not at the same level as semi-domesticated critters like reindeer.



 
Loyalist Dave 
Cannon
Posts: 6761
Loyalist Dave
04-06-18 12:51 PM - Post#1678437    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

  • Quote:
They might have, if they would have had another 1000 years or so before European contact.
The act of migrating to north America slowed their development.



I wonder why, and why an extra 1000 years? Most theories hold that there were no species readily domesticated in North America, other than the dog, YET if there are caribou in North America, they had to have crossed over during the period that included the paleo hunters. So the peoples that crossed over had as long a period of contact with Caribou as did their cousins left behind in Siberia when the sea rose to create the Bearing Straight. So Perhaps it's not curious that the caribou were not semi-domesticated in North America, but more..., what caused the peoples of Siberia to do so?

LD

 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 14577
Colorado Clyde
04-06-18 01:42 PM - Post#1678441    

    In response to Loyalist Dave

The "1000 years" was just an arbitrary number to illustrate my point....

Native Americans did use dogs as draft animals... The Domestication and use of an animal as a "beast of burden" is very much an evolutionary circumstance as much for them as us. Evolution favors circumstance....
Look at Elephants, Indian elephant where tamed 6000 years ago....While African elephants have yet to be.
There are many circumstances including, genetics, culture, geography and time.


 
Icon Legend Permissions Topic Options
Print Topic


898 Views
Welcome Guest...
Enter your Login Name and password to login. If you do not have a username you can register one here

Login Name

Password

Remember me. Help



Login Not Working?...

Registered Members
Total: 32066
Todays
Birthdays
There are no birthdays today
Current Quote
"You will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it."
~ John Quincy Adams

PRIVACY POLICY
FusionBB™ Version 3.0 FINAL | ©2003-2010 InteractivePHP, Inc.
Execution time: 0.115 seconds.   Total Queries: 75  
All times are (GMT-5). Current time is 01:16 PM
Top